UK Parliament / Open data

Commons Bill [HL]

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Monday, 14 November 2005, in the House of Lords.
Commons Bill (HL). Lords committee stage fifth day. Grand Committee off the floor of the House (Moses room). Clauses 36-57 agreed to, Clauses 36,39,41,42,50 and 53 as amended. Schedules 3-5 agreed to, 3 and 5 as amended. New clauses considered. Bill reported with amendments (Bill 39 2005-06). (Fifth Day)

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

675 c241-300GC 

Session

2005-06

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee
Commons Bill (HL). Explanatory Notes HL Bill 11-EN also published.
Monday, 27 June 2005
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Bach | 675 c254GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, but I will write.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c253GC (Link to this contribution) None the less, the local authority would have a view of the situation. Does it mean that the only ro...

Show all contributions (157)
Lord Greaves | 675 c248GC (Link to this contribution) I spoke to Amendment No. 200 but I forgot to mention Amendment No. 200A. It seeks only to clarify ce...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c266GC (Link to this contribution) I understand that the court would have the power to enforce its judgments and orders and that the jo...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c266GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 219:"Page 22, line 3, leave out subsections (3) and (4)." On Question, amendmen...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c262GC (Link to this contribution) We do not believe that it would be appropriate to impose a duty on registration authorities. We are ...
Lord Bach | 675 c257-8GC (Link to this contribution) We fully appreciate the sentiment behind the amendment, which I assume is to provide for the procedu...
Baroness Byford | 675 c255-6GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 211:"Page 20, line 35, leave out paragraph (b)." The noble Baroness said: This ...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c255GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 210:"Page 20, line 28, leave out ““to”” and insert ““having rights in relation t...
Baroness Byford | 675 c281GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that full reply, but I did not understand when she said that there was no w...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c282GC (Link to this contribution) I started to address two particular problems that I have with Clause 43. In the light of what my nob...
Lord Greaves | 675 c278-80GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for, yet again, giving a long reply. I am also grateful for the commen...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c288-9GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord withdraws the amendment, do the Government intend that unauthorised agricultur...
Baroness Byford | 675 c298GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, for raising this issue. Clearly as we have debated the...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c300GC (Link to this contribution) I have always been suspicious of people who know it all. All I can say to my noble friend Lord Greav...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c300GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may thank the Hansard writers for their work.
Duke of Montrose | 675 c254GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask a question which has struck me. The Minister has spoken to Amendment No. 207 to su...
Lord Bach | 675 c254GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Lord will give way. I intend to write to my noble friend on wind farms and to circ...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c253-4GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may correct my noble friend. The Electricity Act 1989 provides that any electricity instal...
Lord Bach | 675 c253GC (Link to this contribution) It would certainly be a matter seriously to be taken into consideration by the Secretary of State—by...
Lord Brougham and Vaux | 675 c252GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned for at least 12 minutes.       [The Sitting was suspended for a Div...
Lord Greaves | 675 c251GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his clarification. I understood his answers more instantly this ti...
Lord Bach | 675 c251GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 201:"Page 20, line 11, after ““under”” insert ““the Metropolitan Commons Act 186...
Baroness Byford | 675 c249-50GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his full response. Having listened to what he said on the government amendm...
Baroness Byford | 675 c241-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 193:"Page 19, line 33, leave out ““appropriate national”” and insert ““relevant ...
Lord Greaves | 675 c266GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that further explanation; obviously I shall go away and think about it again. On t...
Lord Brabazon of Tara | 675 c266GC (Link to this contribution) I must inform the Committee that if Amendment No. 219 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 22...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c264-5GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord presses me to give an example of minor encroachments. This could be a road sign, a no...
Lord Greaves | 675 c265GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that further clarification and will go away and think about this again. For the mo...
Lord Greaves | 675 c263-4GC (Link to this contribution) I thought that was the answer I would receive. Can the Minister provide any number at all of such ca...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c261GC (Link to this contribution) That will be a very useful contribution to have on the record. I am most grateful to the Minister an...
Baroness Byford | 675 c260GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, it is. The reason that I keep raising some of those issues is that we are in new territory. The...
Lord Bach | 675 c256-7GC (Link to this contribution) We believe that Clause 37(6) makes sensible provision for works which have already taken place, perh...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c256GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 213:"Page 21, line 12, leave out subsection (6)." The noble Duke said: This is ...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c255GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his approach and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment...
Lord Bach | 675 c254GC (Link to this contribution) In the letter that I shall write on wind farms, I shall deal with mineral rights. I commend the amen...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c267-8GC (Link to this contribution) We understand that the intention behind the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, is to ensure ...
Lord Brabazon of Tara | 675 c267GC (Link to this contribution) I should point out that if this amendment is agreed to, I shall not be able to call Amendment No. 22...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c269GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 223B to 223E:"Page 22, line 36, leave out ““direction”” and insert ““order””""...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c268GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 223A:"Page 22, line 35, leave out ““direction”” and insert ““order””." The nobl...
Earl Peel | 675 c269GC (Link to this contribution) At what stage in the proceedings would the Secretary of State implement the powers vested in him or ...
Baroness Byford | 675 c270-1GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for raising the question of ““may””. We discussed it on the way bac...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c271GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 226:"Page 23, line 7, after ““local”” insert ““or personal””" On Question, amen...
Baroness Byford | 675 c271GC (Link to this contribution) Then that makes me even more unhappy. ““Shall”” is a direction, meaning one shall do something, whil...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c27-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 227:"Page 23, line 9, at end insert—" ““(2A)   In subsection (2), ““common lan...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c281GC (Link to this contribution) There is no waiting period for land to be registered or for registration to be completed. That is my...
Lord Greaves | 675 c281-2GC (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether inspiration will strike any of the rest of us. I am grateful for that further discu...
Baroness Byford | 675 c277-8GC (Link to this contribution) Having heard the Minister’s response, which was very helpful and fairly telling—perhaps I am missing...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c275-7GC (Link to this contribution) The power in Clause 43 to take action is broad, giving an authority a wide discretion to act in resp...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c275GC (Link to this contribution) Is it possible to disagree only slightly with my noble friend? I want to make a couple of points. As...
Baroness Byford | 675 c291GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful. It was ironic that the two Bills are running alongside each other and we tabled this ...
Baroness Byford | 675 c291GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 244: "Page 26, line 13, leave out subsection (3)." The noble Baroness said: Th...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c291GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 240 to 243:"Page 38, line 29, column 2, leave out ““33”” and insert ““33(1)””"...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c289-90GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord’s amendment is a perfectly reasonable one, with a view to better protecting common la...
Lord Greaves | 675 c289GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 239A:"After Clause 44, insert the following new clause—"    ““DRIVING OF MOTOR...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c286GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak first to Amendment No. 236. The power in this clause is intended as a power of last re...
Lord Greaves | 675 c298-9GC (Link to this contribution) This is an interesting amendment but I am afraid I cannot go along with it. It reflects a fundamenta...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c299-300GC (Link to this contribution) The exchange has been fascinating. Amendment No. 252 would introduce the phrase, "““‘right of acces...
Lord Greaves | 675 c295-6GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. *251A: "After Clause 53, insert the following new clause—"    ““OPERATION    ...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c295GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 251: "Page 27, line 22, leave out subsection (5)." On Question, amendment agre...
Lord Greaves | 675 c297GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that full response. This was a probing amendment to put on record the infor...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c296-7GC (Link to this contribution) I cannot but agree with my noble friend Lord Williams of Elvel. Monitoring the performance of common...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c295GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak briefly to Amendment No. 251, to which I have added my name. This is the first time th...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c293GC (Link to this contribution) Our Amendment No. 247 is grouped with the government amendments. First, as we are reviewing and redr...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c294GC (Link to this contribution) I can see that, and not of my age either. However, I want to look at the two-months period. We all k...
Baroness Byford | 675 c300GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her response. I do not read into the noble Lord’s amendment any suggestion ...
Lord Inglewood | 675 c254GC (Link to this contribution) If the Minister will allow me to put the point I wanted to make, he can answer it in a letter. It re...
Lord Bach | 675 c252-3GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is very rarely provocative, although this may be one of those exceptions. The noble ...
Lord Bach | 675 c250-1GC (Link to this contribution) We do not believe that Amendment No. 197 is necessary. I hope that that helps the noble Lord. In our...
Baroness Byford | 675 c252GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 205, tabled in my name and grouped with these government amendments, is probing in nat...
Lord Greaves | 675 c250GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 197:"Page 19, line 36, after ““access”” insert ““including access under sections...
Baroness Byford | 675 c250GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments Nos. 194 to 196...
Earl Peel | 675 c250GC (Link to this contribution) I do not intend to come back on these amendments because they are not actually mine. However, I endo...
Lord Greaves | 675 c266GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that explanation, which is on the lines I expected. The amendments...
Lord Greaves | 675 c261-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 217:"Page 22, line 2, at end insert—" ““(   )   It is the duty of the commons ...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c262-3GC (Link to this contribution) I am sure the Minister will remember that I previously cited the examples of two golf courses appear...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c263GC (Link to this contribution) It may help the noble Lord if put on the record that the functions of local access forums, establish...
Lord Greaves | 675 c263GC (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister tell the Committee how many cases have been taken to court—over whatever period of ...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c263GC (Link to this contribution) Because we are not involved in these matters we do not have such information at our fingertips. If I...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c260GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 216:"Page 21, line 41, after ““case,”” insert ““except that covered in paragraph...
Lord Greaves | 675 c259GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister rightly said that his amendment goes further than my Amendments Nos. 220 to 221C, which...
Baroness Byford | 675 c259-60GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister has already clarified my two queries. In removing ““eligible”” the amendment opens the ...
Baroness Byford | 675 c258GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister. I must say that I am disappointed; my amendment is attached to that paragraph....
Lord Bach | 675 c258-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 215:"Page 21, line 37, leave out ““eligible””" The noble Lord said: Government ...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c257GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for that reply—that it is not tied to the date of the passage of ...
Baroness Byford | 675 c256GC (Link to this contribution) I think that the noble Lord is wrong, but I will again check carefully. We were trying to question t...
Lord Bach | 675 c254GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 203 and 204:"Page 20, line 13, leave out paragraph (a) and insert—" ““(a)   ...
Lord Greaves | 675 c266-7GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 222:"Page 22, line 20, leave out subsection (3)." The noble Lord said: This con...
Baroness Byford | 675 c269GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 224:"Page 23, line 3, at end insert ““; or" (   )   the upkeep of monuments or...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c269-70GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 41 provides powers for the national authority to exempt certain works from the controls in Cl...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c270GC (Link to this contribution) I shall look very carefully at the point. In my experience of debates in your Lordships’ House, I ha...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c271GC (Link to this contribution) We have been through this so many times in the House. ““May”” equals ““shall”” and ““shall”” equals ...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c272GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 228:"Page 23, line 10, after ““(2)”” insert ““or (2B)””" On Question, amendment...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c272GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 229:"Page 34, line 30, at end insert—" ““(6)   In that article— (a)   in parag...
Baroness Byford | 675 c282GC (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, in his question to the Minister. We touched on it ...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c282-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am not quite sure what the legal position would be. I should like to take advice on the suggestion...
Lord Rotherwick | 675 c284-5GC (Link to this contribution) I heard the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, explaining his amendments and I hope that when I have explaine...
Lord Greaves | 675 c284GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 236:"Page 23, line 33, leave out ““an agricultural”” and insert ““any””" The no...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c273GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 231 and 232:"Page 35, line 20, leave out paragraphs 6 and 7.""Page 35, line 33...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c278GC (Link to this contribution) It might be useful if I raise one or two points which I was going to raise under the clause stand pa...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c291-3GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 245: "After Clause 49, insert the following new clause—"    ““POWER TO AMEND ...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c291GC (Link to this contribution) We agree with the point raised by the noble Baroness and we are prepared to consider it.
Lord Greaves | 675 c290-1GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister and I feel thoroughly satisfied. Since I came into the House some...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c289GC (Link to this contribution) No one is more enthusiastic than I about preventing unauthorised motor vehicle access to common land...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c287GC (Link to this contribution) Our Amendment No. 239 is grouped with Amendment No. 238. The noble Lord, Lord Livsey, has made some ...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c287-8GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 238 would remove Natural England, the Countryside Council for Wales and national park ...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c288GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for agreeing that perhaps the role of the national parks needs to be re-examine...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c286GC (Link to this contribution) I support the Minister in what she said about agricultural activity. I have tabled Amendment No. 238...
Baroness Byford | 675 c285GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend Lord Rotherwick in bringing forward these two groups of very important ame...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c296GC (Link to this contribution) Unless I am completely mistaken, the Countryside Council for Wales is the statutory adviser to the N...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c295GC (Link to this contribution) Having once before taken some interest in hybridity, I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Willia...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c297-8GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 252: "Page 28, line 6, at end insert—" "““““right of access”” means a right of...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c294GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 249: "Page 27, line 14, leave out ““an order under section 49”” and insert ““re...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c294-5GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 250: "Page 27, line 20, after ““Wales)”” insert ““other than an order under sec...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c293-4GC (Link to this contribution) I have just a couple of points to make. One of them is a bit frivolous. I knew several people, now d...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c294GC (Link to this contribution) No one in my advisory group is of such an age.
Lord Greaves | 675 c300GC (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with the noble Baroness.
Lord Bach | 675 c253GC (Link to this contribution) I am talking about large wind farms, and responsibility rests with the DTI—central Government—rather...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c253GC (Link to this contribution) Just before the noble Lord responds, with reference to wind farms, did I understand the Minister to ...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c252GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask my noble friend two questions. First, I imagine—I hope that my noble friend will c...
Lord Bach | 675 c251GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 199:"Page 19, line 39, leave out ““works referred to in subsection (2)(a) includ...
Lord Bach | 675 c251-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 202:"Page 20, line 12, leave out ““works which are””" The noble Lord said: This...
Lord Greaves | 675 c250GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his clarification on some of the amendments I tabled. Some of these matters...
Lord Bach | 675 c248-9GC (Link to this contribution) I shall respond to Amendment No. 200. We have already made it clear in Clause 36(2) that new resurfa...
Lord Bach | 675 c246-8GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 36 essentially re-enacts the existing provisions contained in Section 194 of the Law of Prope...
Lord Greaves | 675 c245-6GC (Link to this contribution) I have three amendments in this group. In speaking to them, I also want to support Amendment No. 194...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c244-5GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the Committee for being slightly late. I am a victim of there being no public transpo...
Earl Peel | 675 c242-4GC (Link to this contribution) It will come as no surprise to the Minister that I have considerable reservations about certain prov...
Lord Brougham and Vaux | 675 c241GC (Link to this contribution) We are expecting Divisions in the Chamber, so perhaps any Member of the Committee who is speaking wh...
Lord Greaves | 675 c265GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 218:"Page 22, line 2, at end insert—" ““(2A)   If a person fails without reaso...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c265-6GC (Link to this contribution) On Amendment No. 218, we understand the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, that enforcement...
Lord Bach | 675 c260-1GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Duke for moving this probing amendment. It would unnecessarily restrict t...
Lord Bach | 675 c260GC (Link to this contribution) I cannot guarantee that no such cases will be brought but the courts are used to dealing with frivol...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c257GC (Link to this contribution) Briefly, I support the amendment in principle. The process should not be open-ended. The imposition ...
Baroness Byford | 675 c257GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 214:"Page 21, line 26, at end insert ““and the timetable to be used””" The nobl...
Lord Bach | 675 c255GC (Link to this contribution) We understand the point that the noble Duke is making. We will reconsider the drafting of the clause...
Lord Bach | 675 c256GC (Link to this contribution) The Bill has been carefully framed to ensure that the Secretary of State and the Assembly take prope...
Lord Bach | 675 c254GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 206 to 209:"Page 20, line 17, at beginning insert ““works””""Page 20, line 19,...
Lord Greaves | 675 c268GC (Link to this contribution) As I said at the beginning, this is a technical matter and I am grateful to the Minister for setting...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c268-9GC (Link to this contribution) These amendments arise as a result of the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Commi...
Lord Brabazon of Tara | 675 c268GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness continues, there is a Division in the Chamber, so perhaps we should adjour...
Earl Peel | 675 c270GC (Link to this contribution) The only other point I have is that the Bill says ““may””. The noble Baroness puts forward a very at...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c282GC (Link to this contribution) If the local authority were able to gain even caretaker ownership of the land it should be possible,...
Baroness Byford | 675 c273GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for bringing forward the amendment. We discussed the position of...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c272-3GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 230:"Page 34, line 32, leave out paragraph 3 and insert—" ““3   (1)   Section ...
Lord Greaves | 675 c273-5GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 233:"Page 23, line 20, leave out ““may””" The noble Lord said: Clause 43 deals ...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c280-1GC (Link to this contribution) I shall seek to answer the noble Lord, but I am conscious that this area of inter-relationship and r...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c289GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 239 not move...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c289GC (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that they would inevitably vary according to local circumstances. That is a comm...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c28-7GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238:"Page 24, line 40, leave out paragraphs (b) to (d)." The noble Lord said: T...
Lord Greaves | 675 c286GC (Link to this contribution) I will respond to the Minister’s comments in a minute. The noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, invited me t...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c293GC (Link to this contribution) I can understand that the noble Duke is concerned about agreeing to what is clearly a wide-ranging p...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c294GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 248: "Page 26, line 25, leave out ““Section 49 comes”” and insert ““Sections 49...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c294GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 246: "Page 26, line 22, leave out ““and 49”” and insert ““, 49 and (power to am...
Back to top