UK Parliament / Open data

National Security Bill

Debate on bills on Wednesday, 1 March 2023, in the House of Lords, led by Lord Sharpe of Epsom and Lord Murray of Blidworth. The answering members were Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede and Lord Coaker.
Lords report stage first day. Amendment 1 agreed to. Amendment 4 disagreed to on division (79 to 226). Amendments 7, 9 to 11, 13, 16 and 17 agreed to. Amendment 18 disagreed to on division (82 to 212). Amendment 18A disagreed to on division (155 to 209). Amendments 19, 20, 24, 30, 31, 35 to 37, 40 to 44 and 47 to 50 agreed to. Amendment 51 agreed to on division (209 to 170). Amendments 52 to 64, 66, 71 and 76 to 78 agreed to. Amendment 80 disagreed to on division (73 to 141). Amendments 81 to 86 agreed to.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

828 cc248-344 

Session

2022-23

Department

Home Office

Legislative stage

Report stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Proceeding contributions

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c248 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

1: Clause 1, page 1, line 9, after “or” insert “having ...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 cc249-250 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, before I speak to the amendments in this group, I would like to talk about some of the ...


Show all contributions (132)
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 828 cc250-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the helpful explanation of the many government amendments in t...

Lord Black of Brentwood | 828 cc252-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 18 in my name, supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell,...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 828 cc254-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Black. I read up on him and it says onl...

Baroness Stowell of Beeston | 828 cc255-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will add a few remarks to what has already been said in the debate. My noble friend L...

Lord Faulks | 828 cc256-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I declare my interest as the chairman of the Independent Press Standards Organisation. ...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 828 cc257-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have added my name in support of my noble friend’s amendments seeking further clarity...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 828 cc258-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall be very brief. I thank the Minister for his explanation of the Government’s ame...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 cc259-262 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have spoken in this debate for their very warm words. The stren...

Lord Black of Brentwood | 828 c262 (Link to this contribution)

Before my noble friend sits down, I will offer one point of clarification. I will of course respo...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 828 c262 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames

4: Clause 1, page 1, line 13, at end insert—<...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 828 cc262-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this group concerns the public interest defence which is contained in Amendment 79 in m...

Baroness Manningham-Buller | 828 c265 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, before we get on to the substance of the Bill, perhaps I might just correct something t...

Lord Garnier | 828 cc265-7 (Link to this contribution)

After that intervention, the noble Lord, Lord Marks, had better watch out for his safety.

I...

Lord West of Spithead | 828 c267 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I might intervene. Ships alter course and go in all sorts of directions. There is a gener...

Lord Garnier | 828 cc267-8 (Link to this contribution)

I would not describe the noble Lord as a young man in a hurry although, had he waited just a seco...

Lord West of Spithead | 828 cc268-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, although I sympathise with Amendment 79, which seeks to protect those who act genuinely...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 828 c269 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I recognise the Government’s argument that these spying offences need to be broad enoug...

Lord Evans of Weardale | 828 cc269-270 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I acknowledge the changes that have been made to Amendment 79 since it was introduced i...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 828 c270 (Link to this contribution)

I have a question on a point of clarification. I understand the point that the noble Lord makes r...

Lord Evans of Weardale | 828 c270 (Link to this contribution)

If I am being invited to comment on whether I would support a different amendment, I say that mig...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 828 cc270-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, throughout the passage of the Bill, concerns have been raised that legitimate acts in t...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 828 cc271-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this group of amendments covers the introduction of a public interest defence—a PID. Th...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 828 c274 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for his response to these amendments, but it has dis...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c277 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

7: Clause 2, page 2, line 17, after “or” insert “having...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c277 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

9: Clause 3, page 3, line 25, leave out “it is reasonab...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c277 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

13: Clause 3, page 3, line 30, after “may” insert “be l...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c277 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

16: Clause 3, page 4, line 13, at end insert—

“(b...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 828 c278 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

18: Clause 3, page 4, line 21, at end insert—<...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 828 c278 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I would like to test the opinion of the House.

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 828 c278 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede

18A: Clause 3, page 4, line 24, at end insert—

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 828 c278 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c278 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

19: Clause 3, page 4, line 33, at end insert—

““l...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c278 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

20: Clause 4, page 5, line 4, after “or” insert “having...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c278 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

24: Clause 5, page 5, line 29, after “or” insert “havin...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 828 c284 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Carlile of Berriew

26: Clause 7, page 6, line 39, leave out “or the Sov...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 828 cc284-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we move from the rather contentious issues of the last two groups to a little bit of su...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 828 cc285-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I declare my connection with the Government of Cyprus, as detailed in the register, and...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 828 cc286-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my name is also on these amendments, and I have also spoken with the High Commission; m...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 828 cc287-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this group covers a variety of related topics. The House has heard only about the amend...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 828 c288 (Link to this contribution)

Is the Minister classifying the sovereign base areas as having the same relationship with Britain...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 828 c288 (Link to this contribution)

Clearly, the SBAs are a special structure, as set out in the 1960 treaty. As I say, they have a u...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 828 c289 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, an Order in Council can be made by His Majesty’s Government. I do not understand when t...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 828 c289 (Link to this contribution)

The point, as the noble Lord will appreciate, is that the Bill should endeavour not to leave any ...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 828 c289 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister has given us an explanation and I accept that the reference to a constable is to a U...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 828 c289 (Link to this contribution)

The Government take the view that it is necessary to have the matter protected in UK law in addit...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 828 cc289-290 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister was careful when he said that the SBAs and the FCDO were consulted by the Home Offic...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 828 c290 (Link to this contribution)

As I hope I have already made clear, it is only Clause 4 that applies. Clause 6 does not apply in...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 828 c290 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am afraid I am very puzzled as a result of the Minister’s reply.

First, I think...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c290 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

30: Clause 7, page 8, line 1, after “a” insert “United ...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 cc290-1 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

35: Clause 11, page 10, line 21, leave out “prove” and ...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c291 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

37: Clause 12, page 10, line 33, after “or” insert “hav...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c291 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

40: Clause 13, page 12, line 11, leave out subsection (...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 cc291-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendments 40, 41 and 50 relate to the offence of foreign interference.

Amendment...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 828 cc292-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 51, which stands in my name and those of the noble Lord, Lord...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 828 cc294-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, one of the reasons for supporting the amendment, to which I have added my name, as the ...

Lord West of Spithead | 828 cc295-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support Amendment 51, which would help increase the transparency and accountability o...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 828 cc296-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the all-Peers letter which the Minister sent to us on 28 February states clearly and st...

Lord Evans of Weardale | 828 c297 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I declare an interest as the chair of the Committee on Standards in Public Life. In 202...

Lord Coaker | 828 cc297-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I rise briefly to say that we very much support Amendment 51 in the name of the noble L...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 cc298-300 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken on this group.

I will start, if I may, by...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 828 c299 (Link to this contribution)

Before the Minister sits down, I just want to check one thing with him. He said that overseas ele...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c299 (Link to this contribution)

I think that I made it reasonably clear that to register as an elector overseas, you must present...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 cc299-301 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

41: Clause 14, page 12, line 23, leave out “as it has e...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c301 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

47: Clause 14, page 12, line 34, after “(1)(d)” insert ...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 828 cc301-2 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Carlile of Berriew

51: After Clause 16, insert the following new Clause...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 828 c302 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am very grateful to all those who have contributed to this debate. It is notable that...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c302 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

52: Clause 17, page 15, line 18, after first “or” inser...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 cc302-6 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

55: Schedule 2, page 71, line 15, at end insert—

...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 cc306-7 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

64: Schedule 6, page 124, line 5, at end insert “or, in...

Lord Beith | 828 c307 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Beith

65: Clause 30, page 22, line 30, at end insert “when carried out ...

Lord Beith | 828 cc307-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the amendment to which I will speak was designed to limit the scope of the immunity whi...

Lord West of Spithead | 828 cc308-313 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I speak in relation to Clause 30 and the different amendments being proposed, including...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 828 cc309-314 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 68 on the supplementary sheet in my name and that of the nobl...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 828 c314 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I rise briefly, I hope, to say that, first, I agree with everything that my noble frien...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 828 cc314-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I understand that our order of business has been changed today. The Government Whip did...

Lord Coaker | 828 cc315-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this is a really important debate. Government Amendment 66 is a considerable improvemen...

Lord Beith | 828 c316 (Link to this contribution)

I put it to the noble Lord that this is not a formality. The point of the Prime Minister meeting ...

Lord Coaker | 828 cc316-7 (Link to this contribution)

I could not agree more with the noble Lord, and that is why it is so incredible that no Prime Min...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 cc317-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who spoke in this debate on Clause 30, the Serious Crime Act 20...

Lord Beith | 828 c318 (Link to this contribution)

On that point, there is a world of difference between the necessary task of a Minister satisfying...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 cc318-320 (Link to this contribution)

I will turn to ministerial responsibility if the noble Lord will bear with me. In fact, I am goin...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 828 c320 (Link to this contribution)

As a point of correction, the omission has been remedied and the amendment is on the supplementar...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 cc320-1 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friend Lady Goldie has not been able to discuss that with our right honourable friend th...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 828 c321 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister knows that, in Committee, I quoted quite a lot from the OSJA human rights guidance, ...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c322 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I cannot confirm that from the Dispatch Box, but I will write to the noble Lord with th...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 828 c322 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister has been helpful, but I hope he can be more specific. When does he think the encoura...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c323 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I go back to what I said to the noble Lord in previous debates on this subject: the act...

Lord Beith | 828 cc323-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, that was a very interesting final remark from the Minister. I hope it will prove to hav...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c324 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

66: Leave out Clause 30 and insert the following new Cl...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c324 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move.

Amendment 67 (to Amendment 66)

Lord West of Spithead | 828 cc324-5 (Link to this contribution)

Tabled by

Lord West of Spithead

67: In inserted section 50A(2), after “necessary” ins...

Lord West of Spithead | 828 c325 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I think our concerns have been assuaged by what the Minister said at the Dispatch Box a...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 828 c325 (Link to this contribution)

Tabled by

Lord Anderson of Ipswich

68: In inserted section 50A(2)(b), leave out “a” a...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 828 c325 (Link to this contribution)

Given the Minister’s undertaking, I shall not move the amendment.

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c325 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

71: Clause 31, page 23, line 7, after “or” insert “havi...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 828 c325 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Wallace of Saltaire

73: Clause 32, page 23, line 31, at beginning inser...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 828 cc326-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this amendment comes with Amendment 75, which is the substantive amendment. I suppose I...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 828 cc327-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 74 in my name. It deals with the definition of “foreign power...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 828 cc329-330 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I completely support what has been said by my noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire in ...

Lord Balfe | 828 cc330-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I think that this part of the Bill was drawn up by someone who had not travelled very w...

Viscount Stansgate | 828 c331 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I want to speak briefly to ask the Minister a question. I support what has been said by...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 828 c331 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this has been a more wide-ranging debate than I was anticipating. The definition of a f...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 cc331-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, and I will do my best to clarif...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 828 c333 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, may I ask a question of clarification? I understand much more clearly what the noble Lo...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c333 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, ruling parties are the foreign power. As I have tried to be clear and have stressed twi...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 828 c334 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, does the Minister accept that an intermediary could be a conference-arranging organisat...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c334 (Link to this contribution)

I noted the noble Baroness’s questions about intermediaries, and I promise that I will address th...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 828 c335 (Link to this contribution)

This is at the heart of it. If the German SPD engaged somebody to set up a stall at our party con...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c335 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Baroness for her comments. I am more than happy to continue engagement on this ...

Viscount Stansgate | 828 c335 (Link to this contribution)

I do not want to detain the House. I asked whether the definition of a political party in Clause ...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c335 (Link to this contribution)

I thought that I answered this when I talked about direction by a foreign power. If members of a ...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 828 c336 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Minister for his clear explanation. There remains a slight degree of uncerta...

Lord Balfe | 828 c336 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, before the Minister comes back, could either he or a representative of the Government t...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c336 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in answer to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, I cannot make any promises ...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 828 c336 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am not convinced by the Minister’s argument. That he has to go back to the single cas...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c337 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

76: Clause 33, page 24, line 29, leave out from “to” to...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c337 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

77: Clause 34, page 25, line 30, at end insert—

“...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c337 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

78: Clause 37, page 27, line 26, at end insert—

“...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 828 cc337-8 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede

80: Leave out Clause 56 and insert the following ...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 828 c338 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will be brief. Amendment 80

“would provide for the regular review of the operat...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 828 cc338-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am not sure whether the noble Lord will seek to test the opinion of the House—he is n...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 828 c339 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, hits on a sore point for independent reviewers past and present. At ...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 828 cc339-340 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for those contributions. There has been plenty of discussion throug...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 828 c340 (Link to this contribution)

Before the Minister sits down, I wonder if he might be able to address my point—which I remind hi...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 828 c340 (Link to this contribution)

I certainly addressed the point which he generously made praising the Government for our amendmen...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 828 c340 (Link to this contribution)

I know that this is Report and we do not have to and fro, but I was making the point that it was ...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 828 cc340-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it was me who moved Amendment 80, which is the first amendment in this group. I thank t...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c341 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

81: Leave out Clause 56.

Member's explanatory sta...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 c343 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

82: Schedule 12, page 175, line 15, at end insert “or, ...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 828 cc343-4 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Sharpe of Epsom

85: After Clause 63, insert the following new Clause—

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