UK Parliament / Open data

National Security Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Wednesday, 11 January 2023, in the House of Lords, led by Lord Sharpe of Epsom. The answering members were Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede and Lord Coaker.
Lords committee stage third day. Clauses 28 and 29 agreed to. (Part 1 of 2).

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

826 cc1438-1482 

Session

2022-23

Department

Home Office

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber
Legislative scrutiny: National Security Bill. Joint Committee on Human Rights fifth report.
Wednesday, 12 October 2022
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons
National Security Bill 2022-23. Brought from the Commons.
Thursday, 17 November 2022
Bills
House of Lords
National Security Bill; Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill: Government response. Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee twentieth report.
Wednesday, 7 December 2022
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
National Security Bill. Constitution Committee tenth report.
Wednesday, 14 December 2022
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords

Show all related items (7)
National Security Bill
Wednesday, 11 January 2023
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2023-0079
Tuesday, 24 January 2023
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 826 c1439 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Purvis of Tweed

63A: Clause 28, page 21, line 14, at end insert—

...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 826 cc1439-1443 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this debate concerns the intelligence agencies and what the appropriate procedures are ...


Show all contributions (64)
Lord Macdonald of River Glaven | 826 c1443 (Link to this contribution)

Before the noble Lord sits down, I just wonder whether he considers that there may be a differenc...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 826 c1443 (Link to this contribution)

I understand the case. The Consolidated Guidance to Intelligence Officers and Service Personnel d...

Lord Evans of Weardale | 826 c1443 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I listened with great interest to the argument made by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of T...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 826 cc1443-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, that sounds right to me. Part 2 of the Serious Crime Act 2007 abolished the common-law ...

Lord Hacking | 826 cc1446-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I follow on from the early comments from the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, about the confu...

Lord Beith | 826 cc1447-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the provisions of this clause and its defects have been set out very well by my noble f...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 826 cc1448-1450 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as is his wont, the noble Lord, Lord Beith, started with a very cogent and important po...

Lord Judge | 826 cc1449-1451 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I apologise for not being present at Second Reading; I was doing other business in the ...

Lord Hope of Craighead | 826 cc1451-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I think we need to remind ourselves that the United Kingdom is a party to the torture c...

Lord Pannick | 826 c1452 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, may I add one footnote to the powerful speeches by my noble friends on these Benches? T...

Baroness Manningham-Buller | 826 c1452 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I had not intended to say anything on this part of the Bill, not least because all thes...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 826 c1452 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble Baroness and of course defer to her very considerable expertise in thi...

Baroness Manningham-Buller | 826 c1452 (Link to this contribution)

I will have a short word with the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, afterwards in the dinner break, if he ...

Baroness Manningham-Buller | 826 cc1452-3 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord may have confused covert intelligence sources as agents—I am sorry; this is termin...

Lord Coaker | 826 cc1453-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I start by saying that if the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, is a pupil barrister,...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 826 cc1454-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to a fascinating and wide-ranging debate. ...

Lord Beith | 826 c1457 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister has repeated several times his reference to the Armed Forces, but, up to now, always...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 826 c1457 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord has pre-empted me by about a second. A number of noble Lords have asked why the Ar...

Lord Beith | 826 c1457 (Link to this contribution)

It would answer the question if the clause was so defined as to limit the extent of the immunity ...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 826 c1457 (Link to this contribution)

I will continue, but I will come back to that, if I may.

I want to return to the question a...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 826 c1457 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise for interrupting the noble Lord. Before he moves on, could he give us two figures whi...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 826 c1458 (Link to this contribution)

I am afraid that I do not have those figures to hand. I am not sure that I will be able to get th...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 826 c1458 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, and I look forward to that reply when it comes in w...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 826 c1458 (Link to this contribution)

As I said earlier, I think this is confined very much to the intelligence support by the Armed Fo...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 826 c1458 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful. No, it is not. The Minister said that there was no change to the approach on unlaw...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 826 cc1458-1460 (Link to this contribution)

I do not believe that there is immunity for that, but I will clarify that if I am incorrect.

<...
Lord Coaker | 826 c1460 (Link to this contribution)

Coming back to the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, gives me the opportunity to return...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 826 c1460 (Link to this contribution)

I am going to do it right now: there is no immunity for inciting or assisting others to kill or t...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 826 c1460 (Link to this contribution)

Could the Minister give a little more information as to why there is no immunity?

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 826 c1460 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord does not want there to be immunity.

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 826 c1460 (Link to this contribution)

No. Why, under this clause, would there continue to be no immunity?

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 826 cc1460-1 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I could get to the end and then clarify this. As I said earlier in relation to the SCA, I...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 826 c1461 (Link to this contribution)

I am very sorry to interrupt the noble Lord again. He said that this would not remove the oversig...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 826 cc1461-2 (Link to this contribution)

I see where the noble Lord is coming from and, yes, I accept that.

I return to the reasonab...

Lord Pannick | 826 c1462 (Link to this contribution)

Before the noble Lord sits down, could I see whether I have understood him correctly? Is he sayin...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 826 c1462 (Link to this contribution)

That is what I am saying. I will come back to whether it should be on the face of the Bill in due...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 826 cc1462-3 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful for that last interaction between the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the Minist...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 826 c1463 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

66A: Clause 29, page 21, line 33, at end inser...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 826 cc1463-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not get frightened easily, but we have talked a lot about nerves here, and walking...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 826 cc1464-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I too did not speak at Second Reading. Unlike the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, w...

Lord Black of Brentwood | 826 cc1466-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I speak in support of Amendment 66A in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Mo...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 826 cc1469-1471 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones and Lady Hayter, and the noble Lord, Lord Black of ...

Baroness Stowell of Beeston | 826 cc1471-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I declare an interest as the chairman of the Communications and Digital Select Committe...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 826 cc1472-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my name is on Amendment 70 and I want to speak to Amendments 68 and 71. I stress that, ...

Lord Faulks | 826 c1474 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will not be disclosing quite as much as the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, did, but I will...

Lord Pannick | 826 cc1474-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I share the concerns which have been expressed in this debate about the breadth of Clau...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 826 cc1475-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I wish very briefly to follow that excellent point, because the Government have not bee...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 826 c1476 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we of course support the overall aim of the Bill. We also support the overall aims of t...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 826 cc1476-7 (Link to this contribution)

No; I cannot respond to that gallantly, can I? I will plough on.

Interestingly, my son rece...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 826 cc1477-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I again thank all noble Lords who have participated in this debate. Amendment 66A seeks...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 826 c1478 (Link to this contribution)

How then, if you seek to attack political parties that are effectively Governments, do you corres...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 826 c1479 (Link to this contribution)

I of course understand where the noble Lord is coming from, but the point is that this relates to...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 826 c1479 (Link to this contribution)

Is the Minister moving off political parties? If so, he has not answered any of the questions tha...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 826 c1479 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Baroness for that. She will forgive me if I do not get involved in what is the ...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 826 c1479 (Link to this contribution)

It will be for the noble Lord or his successor to opine, because it is in the Bill. There is no s...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 826 c1480 (Link to this contribution)

As regards the registering point, the noble Baroness is—as the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, suggest...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 826 c1480 (Link to this contribution)

So there will be meetings that we can have now, and if—God forbid—Mr Trump wins, suddenly the par...

Lord Sharpe of Epsom | 826 cc1480-1 (Link to this contribution)

No, I do not believe that is particularly what I am saying. I suspect we will have to come back t...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 826 c1481 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am afraid I do not accept the Minister’s idea that these things cannot be criminalise...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 826 c1481 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we need to come back to the question of a definition of a foreign power. The idea of a ...

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