UK Parliament / Open data

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Lords committee stage second day. Clauses 2 to 6 agreed to. Schedule 2 agreed to. (Part 1 of 2).

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

762 cc1596-1652 

Session

2015-16

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber
Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill (HL) 2015-16
Thursday, 28 May 2015
Bills
House of Lords
Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee first report.
Wednesday, 17 June 2015
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Wednesday, 24 June 2015
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Beecham | 762 c1596 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Beecham

18: Clause 2, page 3, line 4, at end insert “, with the consent...

Lord Beecham | 762 cc1596-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the amendments in this group relate to the delegation of functions to the deputy mayor ...


Show all contributions (118)
Lord Shipley | 762 c1597 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support the main aim of Amendment 18, and will speak in particular to Amendments 19 a...

Lord Adonis | 762 c1597 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I may ask the noble Lord to reflect on the clear problem that could arise, which is that ...

Lord Shipley | 762 c1598 (Link to this contribution)

It is possible that the mayor would not get on with the deputy mayor, but what the amendments are...

Lord Tyler | 762 cc1598-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I want to support the view which has just been expressed by my noble friend Lord Shiple...

Lord Deben | 762 cc1599-1600 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I hope that the Government will in fact do exactly the opposite. That last speech expla...

Lord Grocott | 762 cc1600-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I hope that I am not misrepresenting the noble Lord, Lord Deben. I think that he said t...

Lord Adonis | 762 c1601 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I would have sympathy with my noble friend Lord Grocott if the mayor were able to act i...

Lord Shipley | 762 c1601 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Lord is referring to Amendment 19 but what does he think about his own party’...

Lord Adonis | 762 c1601 (Link to this contribution)

I would have more sympathy with that because of course that will be the colleagues from the execu...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 cc1602-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will deal first with Amendments 18, 20, 21 and 22.

Amendment 18 would require t...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 762 c1604 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, maybe I should know this, and I do not, but what provision is there without going via t...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 c1604 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Baroness has answered the first part of that question herself because it is i...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 762 c1604 (Link to this contribution)

But does the Minister agree that the leaders would have four-year terms unless their group decide...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 c1605 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, authorities which fail to fulfil the duty of best value go into statutory intervention....

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 762 c1605 (Link to this contribution)

I understand absolutely that it is a different ball game when corruption is involved, as with som...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 c1605 (Link to this contribution)

I certainly can. With other mayoral systems—for example, the Mayor of London and mayors elsewhere...

Lord Woolmer of Leeds | 762 c1606 (Link to this contribution)

Can the Minister enlighten me on one point and agree with me on a second? First, when it is said ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 c1606 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Lord for that very useful intervention. First, he asked whether choosing a depu...

Lord Woolmer of Leeds | 762 c1606 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. Am I right in understanding that it must be not simply an el...

Lord Storey | 762 c1606 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have a slight correction on this. In those cities with elected mayors—that is, Liverp...

Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 762 c1606 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we must take into account and deal with the important point raised by the noble Barones...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 c1607 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Members of Parliament can be dismissed via the ballot box. If Members of Parliament beh...

Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 762 c1607 (Link to this contribution)

The point I was making was that in the last Parliament new legislation enabled electors to get ri...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 c1607 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, there is not a process for local authority councillors to be recalled—or for local auth...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 762 c1607 (Link to this contribution)

I will stop pushing on this point, but I have one last question that I am still not clear on. Tha...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 c1607 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a very interesting point. Other points have been made at lengt...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 762 c1608 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am not sure whether I am going to be helpful to the Minister, but would it be possibl...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 c1608 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, if that were to happen, the Secretary of State would have to disband the combined autho...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 762 c1608 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps the Minister would reflect and write on that point.

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 c1608 (Link to this contribution)

I would like to correct the comment that I have just made and come back to it in a future group, ...

Lord Beecham | 762 c1608 (Link to this contribution)

That just illustrates the complexity of the matters that we are discussing. I refer to one matter...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 c1608 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord is correct, in fact—it would usually be a local authority leader, but would not ne...

Lord Woolmer of Leeds | 762 c1608 (Link to this contribution)

That comes back to the clarification that we asked for—and we are getting a little lost in it. Is...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 762 c1608 (Link to this contribution)

That is a good question—particularly if there were no leaders in political sympathy with the mayo...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 c1608 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the deputy mayor has to be a member of the combined authority, not just a councillor in...

Lord Beecham | 762 c1608 (Link to this contribution)

So the shape and construction of combined authorities may vary, but there will be a distinct memb...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 c1609 (Link to this contribution)

I just want to confirm that the noble Lord is correct.

Lord Beecham | 762 c1609 (Link to this contribution)

Well, we have agreed on something. Whether there will be any more agreement before the afternoon ...

Lord Tyler | 762 c1609 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord of course makes a very important point. One of our difficulties at the moment is t...

Lord Beecham | 762 c1610 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble Lord. He will be less grateful to me when I say that I am afraid I do ...

Viscount Eccles | 762 c1610 (Link to this contribution)

Would I not be right to say that the noble Lord is going to have at least part of the privilege o...

Lord Beecham | 762 cc1610-1 (Link to this contribution)

Much as I would like to be able to take decisions on behalf of the whole population of the north-...

Lord Beecham | 762 c1611 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Beecham

24: Clause 3, page 4, line 31, at end insert—

“( ) Where ...

Lord Beecham | 762 cc1611-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this is a probing amendment in relation to the controversial proposal under new Section...

Lord Shipley | 762 c1612 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I agree with the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. I want to ask the ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 cc1612-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendment 24 would insert a new provision within new Section 107E to require the Secret...

Lord Beecham | 762 c1613 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Baroness has answered the question put by the noble Lor...

Lord Shipley | 762 c1613 (Link to this contribution)

I am quite happy to have the question answered later. We will be going on to another set of amend...

Lord Beecham | 762 c1613 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as I indicated, we will not be pressing this matter at this stage. I therefore beg leav...

Lord Beecham | 762 c1613 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Beecham

27: Clause 3, page 4, line 42, at end insert “all”

Lord Beecham | 762 cc1613-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my noble friend Lord McKenzie is resting temporarily but will occupy centre stage short...

Lord Shipley | 762 cc1614-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, a number of issues arise from this group of amendments. I look forward to the Minister’...

Lord Beecham | 762 c1615 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord. I apologise for omitting reference to two amendme...

Lord Liddle | 762 cc1615-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I hesitate to disagree with my noble friend Lord Beecham, for whom I have enormous resp...

Lord Storey | 762 c1616 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it has to be about more than swapping the police and crime commissioner’s police car fo...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 762 c1616 (Link to this contribution)

I wonder whether the noble Lord might withhold his comments. A very important issue is raised by ...

Lord Storey | 762 c1616 (Link to this contribution)

I am awfully sorry, my Lords. As I sat down, I squeezed my mobile phone and suddenly a voice was ...

Lord Grocott | 762 cc1616-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, having listened to the debate so far on the various amendments, I am mightily glad that...

Lord Grocott | 762 c1617 (Link to this contribution)

It is always interesting to unravel these bits and pieces. We might test a few more policies on t...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 762 c1618 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Grocott, who is absolutely right. Let me give an example...

Earl of Lytton | 762 cc1618-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, having not spoken on the Bill before, I must declare a few interests as a former presid...

Viscount Eccles | 762 c1619 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I had concluded, perhaps wrongly, that we would not see very many combined authority ma...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 cc1619-1620 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I, too, start with an apology, having not answered the point of the noble Lord, Lord Sh...

Lord Beecham | 762 c1620 (Link to this contribution)

If it is convenient, could the Minister indicate whether there is any intention to make arrangeme...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 cc1620-2 (Link to this contribution)

If the noble Lord will indulge me, I will get on to that a bit later.

Amendment 27 seeks to...

Lord Shipley | 762 c1621 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, perhaps I might pursue the Minister’s answer on the right of the general public to know...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 c1621 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I can confirm that when people vote they will know what the mayor’s functions are.

Lord Tyler | 762 c1621 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, will the noble Baroness clear up one other point for me? She referred to the panel in n...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 c1623 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I can confirm what the noble Lord says. I go back to a previous question that relates t...

Lord Beecham | 762 cc1623-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I begin by taking up the penultimate point that the noble Baroness made in relation to ...

Baroness Wheatcroft | 762 c1624 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Wheatcroft

33: Clause 4, page 6, line 18, at end insert—

“( )...

Baroness Wheatcroft | 762 cc1624-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this is a broad enabling Bill. Amendment 33 is a narrow amendment, intended to enable m...

Lord Flight | 762 c1626 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft’s excellent amendment. If you go to America, ...

Lord Liddle | 762 cc1626-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I express support for the principle of the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady ...

Baroness Wheatcroft | 762 c1627 (Link to this contribution)

To answer the noble Lord, insurance is always available for anything—at a price, of course—and I ...

Baroness Janke | 762 cc1627-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I, too, welcome this amendment. As a former leader of Bristol City Council I tried to l...

Lord Moynihan | 762 cc1628-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft and to which I a...

Lord Warner | 762 c1629 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I, too, support this amendment. I listened carefully to some of the ideas about what su...

Lord True | 762 cc1629-1630 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have not so far participated in this Committee and apologise to the House for that. I...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 762 c1630 (Link to this contribution)

In one sense, one very much welcomes the proposal of powers that we used to have rather more free...

Lord Woolmer of Leeds | 762 cc1630-1 (Link to this contribution)

On a similar point, what has been lacking in recent years with regard to capital funding and borr...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 762 cc1631-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, before discussing Amendment 35, perhaps first I could speak briefly to Amendments 34 an...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 cc1632-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is refreshing to hear innovative ideas coming from your Lordships’ House. I commend ...

Baroness Wheatcroft | 762 c1635 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her detailed response, which was not entirely encouraging. I t...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 762 c1635 (Link to this contribution)

Will the noble Baroness clarify whether we are talking about simply a positive mechanism to raise...

Baroness Wheatcroft | 762 c1635 (Link to this contribution)

I gather from the Minister that the capacity to expand borrowing would not be there, so this woul...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 762 c1635 (Link to this contribution)

From the noble Baroness’s response to the Minister’s point about borrowing capacity, I am still n...

Baroness Wheatcroft | 762 c1635 (Link to this contribution)

There are clearly issues to be worked out. I am very flexible about this. It is the principle of ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 762 c1636 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord McKenzie of Luton

36ZA: Clause 6, page 8, line 2, after “property” inse...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 762 c1636 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this is a small and narrow amendment. In fact, I contemplated whether I should move it ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 cc1636-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendments 36ZA and 36ZB seek to amend the provisions in the Bill that relate to the pr...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 762 c1637 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Minister for that explanation. As I explained, the technical wording was sim...

Earl of Listowel | 762 c1637 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

The Earl of Listowel

36A: After Clause 6, insert the following new Clause—

Earl of Listowel | 762 cc1638-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will speak also to my Amendment 36B.

Amendment 36A introduces a review on homel...

Lord Shipley | 762 cc1639-1640 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support Amendments 36A and 36B, moved by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and I do so i...

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville | 762 c1640 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. As has been demonstrated by the noble Earl, it is really...

Lord Beecham | 762 cc1640-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I can well see the point of having housing strategy determined at the level of the comb...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 762 cc1642-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, although I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, for managing, with some finess...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 762 cc1643-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we have considerable sympathy with the thinking behind both amendments from the noble E...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 c1644 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendments 36A and 36B would insert two new clauses into the Bill that place statutory ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 762 c1644 (Link to this contribution)

I am surprised that the Minister has adduced that definition of “affordable”, because for those o...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 cc1644-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, because I appreciate that I have not given an acceptable definition today, perhaps I ma...

Earl of Listowel | 762 c1646 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her careful reply and particularly for her last comment about ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 c1646 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Earl for that question because I did not pick up on that point. I spoke earlier...

Earl of Listowel | 762 c1646 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 762 c1646 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord McKenzie of Luton

36C: After Clause 6, insert the following new Clause—...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 762 cc1646-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 36F. Let me say at the outset that the amendments are t...

Lord Shipley | 762 cc1647-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am pleased in principle to support Amendments 36C and 36F. However, in Amendment 36C,...

Lord Warner | 762 c1648 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support my noble friend’s Amendment 36C. It is particularly important in relation to ...

Lord Woolmer of Leeds | 762 cc1648-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, these amendments go to the heart of one of the problems that we have talked about many ...

Earl of Listowel | 762 cc1649-1650 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I wish to echo a concern expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, if I understood him...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 762 cc1650-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, these amendments seek in one way or another to provide that in advance of the devolutio...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 762 cc1651-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. Every noble Lord has supp...

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