Wales Bill

My Lords, in speaking to the amendments in my name in this group—Amendments 3 and 19—I can be rel...

Of course they did, and I will say something about that if I have an opportunity later. However, ...

My noble friend is the personification of constitutional rectitude, so I will not be surprised if...

My noble friend is making a very strong argument in principle for 16 year-olds benefiting from th...

My Lords, I do not know if my noble friend heard some of the discussion earlier about the pieceme...

My Lords, the noble Lord spoke with great passion but he is not right that all political parties ...

My Lords, I am a little less worried than the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, about the prospect of...

The difficulty about that proposition is that the bulk of the money is still going to come to Wal...

The noble Lord is absolutely right about the significance of grants that I hope would continue to...

I just wanted to draw the attention of the noble Lord to the fact that there is of course a very ...

They are relevant to the Bill but the fact that the Bill deals with referendums does not make ref...

My Lords, I am not rising to resolve that particular problem. Though I am by nature and inclinati...

I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way to me; he knows that I have very much respect for ...

The respect is mutual, may I say. My noble friend—I shall call him that—and I have known each oth...

Does my noble friend not accept that, if there is to be a comprehensive exercise involving a roya...

I do not favour votes at 16, so I would be hypocritical in the extreme if I said, “Yes, of course...

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for his kind comments about me. May I return the ...

My Lords, if I had had the vote at 16, I would have voted Labour, but I grew out of it. I grew up...

Perhaps I may take my noble friend back from his party-political forays to the issue of principle...

No, I do not accept that there was a consensus—a consensus between whom? The last-minute promise ...

I fully support the noble Lord’s desire and call for a royal commission but royal commissions do ...

I entirely accept that. Incidentally, I thought that the report that was produced by the royal co...

My Lords, the most striking feature of the Scottish referendum was that there was an 86% turnout ...

My Lords, we have had a most interesting debate and it has been good to hear noble Lords from dif...

Is it also the view of the Labour Party that young people of 16 should be allowed to drink and to...

We certainly have not agreed to that at all. I am absolutely positive that we have not, but I tak...

Before the noble Baroness sits down, can she tell me whether the Labour Party’s position is also ...

My Lords, that is a very good question. It was only in recent years that we lowered that age to 1...

My Lords, Amendments 3 and 19, in the name of my noble friends Lord Tyler and Lord Thomas of Gres...

I am extremely grateful to my noble friend and to her officials for all the discussions that have...

I may stand to be corrected by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, whose experience of Assembly Sta...

Why is this being restricted to the referendum and not extended to votes for the Assembly?

There is no feeling in the Government that the Bill is an appropriate vehicle for establishing a ...

My understanding is that the noble Baroness’s party is strongly in favour of a constitutional com...

The noble Lord does not seem to be entirely taking into account the considerable length of time t...

A constitutional convention or royal commission could take a very long time. However, the referen...

If the noble Lord is telling us here today that the Labour Government in Wales have already decid...

The wording of the National Assembly’s resolution on the future of devolution emphasised that a r...

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. I interpreted that phrase to mean that the decision ...

I apologise for interrupting my noble friend once more and I promise that I will not do it again....

My Lords, the amendment we are in the process of drafting specifically relates to this referendum...

Will the Minister also explain the difference of principle which makes it appropriate for people ...

There are various strands to that question. One point is that there must be a consistency in fran...

My Lords, I am very grateful to the considerable number of noble Lords who have taken part in thi...

I ought to be old enough not to have fallen into that trap. I was suggesting that, rather than ru...

Many of us believe that getting the right devolution package is essential to all the countries of...

Moved by

Lord Anderson of Swansea

4: After Clause 1, insert the following new Clause—...

My Lords, Amendment 4 stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Morgan. It states that a...

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down—

I have given the Minister the opportunity to truncate my speech, but perhaps I should set out the...

I thank my friend the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, for continuing to move his amendment. I was afra...

My Lords, before we go any further, I might not be the only Member of your Lordships’ House who d...

What we have here are two amendments, appropriately grouped together, but with two different prin...

Agreement.

Yes, agreement with the Assembly on the outcome—a need to negotiate an agreement. So there are tw...

My Lords, I would be disappointed if the more radical interpretation of Amendment 4 that the nobl...

The noble Lord’s remarks have prompted a question in my mind. What is the role of the Electoral C...

The Electoral Commission has certain duties that are defined under statute and it offers authorit...

My Lords, I add my appreciation of the fact that we have seen some significant movement during th...

My Lords, I fear that I might be about to disappoint one or two noble Lords by not being able to ...

My joy is unbound.

Then I very much hope that the noble Lord expresses his joy by not moving his amendment.

My Lords, I was hoping for a more positive response. As I may have said earlier, once upon a time...

Does the noble Lord accept that discussions are going on at this time on whether these issues sho...

The last thing I would argue for is delay. There is surely a case for delay if there are genuine ...

Moved by

Lord German

6: Clause 2, page 2, line 1, at end insert—

“( ) for subse...

My Lords, I am pleased to move this amendment standing in my name and that of my noble friends Lo...

Before the noble Lord concludes his remarks—I support his general thrust—does he accept that if t...

I understand, but I repeat what I said in Committee—that it is a matter of timing. We are talking...

My Lords, as the noble Lord has just said, Amendment 6 would provide that the names of candidates...

I thank my noble friend for her remarks. I have only two comments to make. At the outset, I said ...

It is important that the noble Lord takes account of what I have just said. I will certainly ensu...

I thank my noble friend for that and, on that basis, beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Moved by

Lord Anderson of Swansea

7: Clause 2, leave out Clause 2

Amendment 7 stands in my name and in the name of my noble friend Lady Morgan. My initial submissi...

My Lords, I want to say a word or two in support of my noble friend Lord Anderson. The principle ...

My Lords, mistakes were made by the Labour Government in the first place with the electoral syste...

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down—perhaps he has already sat down—does he agree with me t...

I accept the logic of that. We have always argued for it and will continue to do so.

My Lords, I speak to this amendment in support of what my noble friend Lord Anderson said. When t...

My Lords, Amendment 7 tabled in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, would remove Clause 2 ...

There may or may not be validity in what the noble Lord is saying. Some people may vote positivel...

This comes back to the amendment put forward by my noble friend Lord German where the candidates’...

If one looks at the votes that are cast for the regional lists and the constituencies, Labour top...

I thought that the noble Baroness was going to address the point about Scotland and the Greater L...

My Lords, first, I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, to the Front Bench for the first time on ...

My main concern about this whole issue is the constitutional situation where the electoral system...

I have argued in the past that all the electoral arrangements, including this one, should be devo...

Moved by

Lord Norton of Louth

8: Clause 3, leave out Clause 3

My Lords, Clause 3 is straightforward. It disqualifies Members of the House of Commons from sitti...

My Lords, I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Norton, says. He argues on a point of principle that t...

My Lords, we should be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, for inviting us to refle...

Briefly, it is a good idea in principle for there to be a cross-fertilisation of people from West...

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Norton, for his amendment, which allows us to discuss a cl...

My Lords, it is precisely because there was cross-party agreement that there is a valuable case f...

While there is a difference between being a Minister and a Member of Parliament, they are in the ...

My Lords, I recall that, particularly pre-devolution, we had Ministers who were responsible for d...

I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way. I was—

Perhaps I could remind the House that, after the Minister has spoken, it is only the mover of the...

In that case, I will not be able to anticipate what my noble friend Lord Crickhowell may have bee...

Moved by

Lord Thomas of Gresford

9: After Clause 3, insert the following new Clause—<...

Listening to the last debate, I was reminded that in 1998 the original Government of Wales Bill d...

The disqualification list includes judges in subsection (2)(a). We understand perfectly well from...

I assure the noble and learned Lord that they appear in the schedule to the House of Commons Disq...

I am grateful for that intervention. I noticed the absence of the Scottish judges. I wondered whe...

I entirely agree with the noble and learned Lord’s point of view.

My Lords, it seems that the exchange between the noble Lord and the noble and learned Lord has am...

My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for the work that has obviously been done in the Wal...

Moved by

Lord Elystan-Morgan

12: After Clause 3, insert the following new Clause—

My Lords, in moving this amendment that stands in the name of my noble friend Lord Wigley and mys...

My Lords, I am delighted to have added my name to this amendment and very much support what the n...

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, made his case in masterful fashion and has given a...

The words Churchill used were, “a sense of crowd and urgency”.

The noble Lord always has a sense of historical drama. He imports that even to these very proceed...

My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan. As long ago as 2004, when the commission...

My Lords, I support the amendment most warmly. I do not wish to rehearse the Committee stage of t...

My Lords, I, too, have sympathy with the amendment. I was recently in Cardiff Bay, speaking at a ...

My Lords, I support Amendment 12 in the name of my noble friend Lord Elystan-Morgan and the noble...

My Lords, I want to add a few words in support of the amendment. With great respect to the noble ...

My Lords, once again we have had an interesting debate, as we did in Committee. There was general...

My Lords, Amendment 12 would increase the size of the Assembly to 80 Members. In Committee we had...

My Lords, for at least the second time today, the angel of good will and of progressive tolerance...

Moved by

Lord Roberts of Llandudno

13: After Clause 5, insert the following new Claus...

My Lords, we very much appreciate the work of all those who have been involved in the Welsh Assem...

My Lords, these amendments deserve, and indeed enjoy, wide support. I added my name enthusiastica...

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 13, 14 and 15, which have my name attached to them, and in ...

My Lords, I am very pleased to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and to indicate tha...

My Lords, it is 94 years since the voice of the bishops in Wales has been heard in this House but...

My Lords, I am delighted to be a cosignatory of Amendment 15 in the name of my noble friend and o...

My Lords, is it not a principal purpose of education to enable young people to think for themselv...

My Lords, I support Amendment 13 very much in the spirit of the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, who has ...

My Lords, I am again pleased to take part in this debate and it seems that, once again, consensus...

My Lords, I start by paying tribute to my noble friend’s very energetic campaign on this issue, w...

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her reassurance. I now know that we can go ahead with the disc...

Moved by

Baroness Morgan of Ely

16: Clause 6, page 7, line 13, at end insert—

“...

My Lords, it is getting late, but I want to move this amendment, in which we seek to future-proof...

My Lords, I have listened to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, with interest. There are cer...

My Lords, I support Amendment 16, standing in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely....

My Lords, these amendments utter an important warning. It is one thing to devolve minor taxes, su...

My Lords, the issue underpinning Amendments 16 and 20 is symmetry between devolution settlements....

I thank the noble Baroness but we must consider and understand that whatever we would like for Wa...

Moved by

Baroness Morgan of Ely

18: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause—<...

My Lords, I turn now to the issue of fair funding for Wales. The Labour Party is keen for this Bi...

My Lords, I support the amendment that my noble friend has just moved. It is as important as any ...

My Lords, I always enjoy the conversion of the Labour Party to the idea that the Barnett formula ...

My Lords, we acknowledge that the Government have taken certain steps to improve the scandal of B...