UK Parliament / Open data

Health and Social Care Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Monday, 28 November 2011, in the House of Lords, led by Earl Howe.

Health and Social Care Bill. Lords committee stage eighth day. Clause 20 under consideration.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

733 c15-83, 94-120

Session

2010-12

Deposited Paper DEP2012-0227
Monday, 6 February 2012
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Deposited Paper DEP2011-2022
Thursday, 8 December 2011
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Deposited Paper DEP2011-2034
Thursday, 8 December 2011
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Show all related items (6)

Constitution Select Committee (HL) eighteenth report on the Health and Social Care Bill.
Wednesday, 14 September 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords

Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Nineteenth report on: Health and Social Care Bill; London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (Amendment) Bill; Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill. (Lords Minutes).
Friday, 14 October 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Warner | 733 c70-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will speak in support of Amendments 129 and 129A in the group. First, I will take up the...

Baroness Thornton | 733 c83 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for those remarks and all other noble Lords for theirs. This has been a very hi...

Show all contributions (131)

Lord Rooker | 733 c110-2 (Link to this contribution) If the Minister’s words in the last debate mean anything at all, he will accept this amendment. It i...

Lord Butler of Brockwell | 733 c46 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his comments in response to Amendment 109A and I thank t...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 733 c20 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I chip in briefly in support of the amendment. I hasten to assure my noble friends on the ...

Earl Howe | 733 c107 (Link to this contribution) My point is that either for the board or Monitor to act with a specific view to change the market sh...

Earl Howe | 733 c118-20 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have had a lot of helpful comments in the debate and very much welcome the chance to rei...

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 733 c120 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister say a word or two about the building up of capacity, which seemed a very important ...

Baroness Thornton | 733 c100-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, three amendments are tabled in this group in my name and those of my noble friends. They a...

Earl Howe | 733 c15 (Link to this contribution) That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.

Earl Howe | 733 c15-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the House goes into Committee on the Health and Social Care Bill, I should like to ...

Baroness Thornton | 733 c16-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that Statement, of which I did not have more than two minutes’ notice. It i...

Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 733 c18 (Link to this contribution) How long is it likely to take for the appeal and the decision? If the decision disallows the appeal,...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 733 c18 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would be grateful if the Minister could let us know whether the department considered th...

Earl Howe | 733 c18-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Butler, whose understanding of these matters is...

Lord Elton | 733 c18 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, will remember those words when she is consi...

Lord Turnberg | 733 c29-30 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a disparate group of amendments. I support a number of them. Some seem to be count...

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 733 c27-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have Amendment 112 and 113 in this group. I have a comment regarding the excellent speec...

Baroness Thornton | 733 c26-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may speak to the amendments in this group which are in my name. First, Amendment...

Lord Mawson | 733 c25-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to support Amendment 131A proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. My wife ...

Baroness Cumberlege | 733 c22-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have tabled three amendments in this grouping: Amendments 110C, 131A and 190C. I am grat...

Lord Walton of Detchant | 733 c21-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to support Amendment 109A. There is no doubt at all that for many years now the wor...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 733 c31 (Link to this contribution) As this is Committee stage, I hope my noble friends will forgive me if I play Oliver Twist and seek ...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 733 c35-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I start by adding my support for the amendments that change the duty to reduce inequalitie...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 733 c17 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask the Minister a question. He gave us a list of all the areas which he thought it wa...

Earl Howe | 733 c17 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my clear understanding is that the Information Commissioner had full access to the risk re...

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 733 c18 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Department of Health will be aware that with a freedom of information request there ar...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 733 c18 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understand there is a precedent—a Department of Transport one. Therefore, there is a dis...

Lord Butler of Brockwell | 733 c18 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the problem is not what may be contained in a particular risk register, as the Minister ha...

Lord Butler of Brockwell | 733 c19-20 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, with the agreement of the noble Lord, Lord Newton, I move Amendment 109A, which stands in ...

Lord Butler of Brockwell | 733 c19 (Link to this contribution) 109A: Clause 20, page 17, leave out lines 33 and 34 and insert— ““(5) In discharging its duty under ...

Baroness D'Souza | 733 c19 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I advise the Committee that if the amendment is agreed to, Amendments 110 and 110ZA cannot...

Lord Rooker | 733 c110 (Link to this contribution) 137: Clause 20, page 20, line 1, at end insert— ““( ) The Board may take specific action to support ...

Baroness Thornton | 733 c109-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for his answer. I wish I could say that I now completely understand e...

Earl Howe | 733 c109 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we will come quite soon, I hope, to Part 3 of the Bill, which deals with competition more ...

Lord Warner | 733 c115 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, would the noble Baroness accept from me, as someone who was this great centraliser sitting...

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 733 c114 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord will know that the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, has in it some ver...

Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top | 733 c113-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. It is critical that the Government are clear as to how they...

Lord Warner | 733 c112-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak in support of my noble friend Lord Rooker’s amendment. I pose a couple of question...

Baroness Jolly | 733 c115 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I can give an example of where it has been provided. Today I have been talking to the oper...

Lord Mawson | 733 c115-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very sympathetic to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, for very practical ...

Lord Beecham | 733 c116-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, for centuries what is now termed the voluntary or charitable sector was the main provider ...

Lord Mawson | 733 c118 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would certainly be willing to help with this. It is one thing to talk to representative ...

Earl Howe | 733 c120 (Link to this contribution) I have already outlined a number of funds that are held centrally to enable that to happen. That is ...

Lord Rooker | 733 c120 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if this was in the Bill, no one would have to take any notice of it at all. That is the re...

Lord Warner | 733 c69 (Link to this contribution) 124: Clause 20, page 18, line 11, at end insert ““including access to or holding of their own medica...

Lord Warner | 733 c69 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I listened very carefully to the Minister’s response to my amendment on patients’ access t...

Earl Howe | 733 c67-8 (Link to this contribution) I am. The intention is that no clinical commissioning group will be authorised in the first instance...

Lord Patel | 733 c68-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on behalf of all noble Lords who took part in the debate I thank the Minister for his comm...

Lord Warner | 733 c66-7 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the noble Earl’s flow but I have been extremely restrained today. Can he cla...

Baroness Thornton | 733 c70 (Link to this contribution) 128A: Clause 20, page 18, line 24, after ““provision”” insert ““and commissioning””

Lord Warner | 733 c69 (Link to this contribution) 126: Clause 20, page 18, line 14, leave out from second ““to”” to end of line 15 and insert ““the ac...

Lord Warner | 733 c70 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is an important issue about choice. We need more beef in the Bill about what it means...

Lord Warner | 733 c69 (Link to this contribution) 125: Clause 20, page 18, line 11, at end insert— ““( ) In discharging this duty, the Board must publ...

Lord Warner | 733 c69 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am glad to note that the noble Earl is willing to reflect on this and perhaps discuss it...

Lord Patel | 733 c72 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, to which I have added my n...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 733 c72-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to speak briefly to Amendment 129ZA, which is really a probing amendment. I hope th...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 733 c73-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 130, 131, 147, 150, which are in my name. I have also added ...

Lord Willis of Knaresborough | 733 c76-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, and particularly to support her ...

Baroness Thornton | 733 c70 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we move on now to discuss innovation and research. The amendments in this group are very i...

Lord Turnberg | 733 c79-80 (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak to some of the amendments that are in my name. I would also like to comment briefly ...

Earl Howe | 733 c80 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the NHS has a long and proud track record of innovating and delivering better care for pat...

Baroness Thornton | 733 c80 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt, but it strikes me that if none of us understood that that was what those wo...

Earl Howe | 733 c80 (Link to this contribution) I am always keen to accept the wise suggestions of the noble Baroness, and I will of course go away ...

Baroness Cumberlege | 733 c46 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was heartened by a lot of what my noble friend said about maternity services, but it see...

Baroness Barker | 733 c46 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, can my noble friend tell me where in the legislation it is made clear, if a CCG were to ha...

Lord Warner | 733 c45-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, can I ask the noble Earl a couple of questions, on which I would be grateful if he could w...

Lord Patel | 733 c46-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendments in my name are about patient and public involvement, and accountability to ...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 733 c47-50 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have put my name to several amendments in this group, some of which are in my name only....

Earl Howe | 733 c46 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in the interests of time I suggest that I write to noble Lords on those questions, and I a...

Lord Patel | 733 c53-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment of Lord Warner on patients holding their own records. Speaking fro...

Lord Warner | 733 c50-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to speak in support of Amendments 124, 125, 126 and 196, which are in my name in th...

Lord Clement-Jones | 733 c52-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 127B and 197B. As they relate to pharmacy, I declare an intere...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 733 c54-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is an extremely important group of amendments, but I hope it is, by and large, an unc...

Lord Kakkar | 733 c55-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendment 198 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Patel. It would impose a ...

Baroness Pitkeathley | 733 c57 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I agree with my noble friend Lord Harris that this is an extremely important group of amen...

Baroness Murphy | 733 c57-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to add a number of comments to one or two of these amendments. I have my name on Am...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 733 c59 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak briefly to Amendments 193 and 197, amendments to proposed new Sections 14T, ...

Lord Walton of Detchant | 733 c59-60 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise briefly to support the principle underlying Amendment 198, so ably proposed by my n...

Lord Neill of Bladen | 733 c60 (Link to this contribution) I make one comment on the amendments, which also goes to the Government’s fundamental philosophy, wi...

Baroness Masham of Ilton | 733 c60-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I add my support to the patient involvement amendments and the HealthWatch amendments. Who...

Baroness Wheeler | 733 c61-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am pleased to support the spirit, intention and thrust of all the amendments in this ver...

Earl Howe | 733 c63-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this large group of amendments all relate to the different ways in which patients, the pub...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 733 c30-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have put my name to several of the amendments in this group—namely, Amendments 112, 113,...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 733 c20-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak to Amendment 110ZA. In tabling the amendment and Amendment 343A, I was mindful of ...

Earl Howe | 733 c39-41 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Butler, and my noble friend Lord Newton for promptin...

Baroness Thornton | 733 c39 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I forgot to speak to my Amendment 137A. I will make three points. The first is not about m...

Earl Howe | 733 c42-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right, and my understanding is that we are doing that as well. Mea...

Lord Walton of Detchant | 733 c42 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for confirming that the Government are working with the BMA. Is it ...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 733 c37 (Link to this contribution) If the Minister were inclined to concede our amendment, subject to a proviso dealing with emergencie...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 733 c36-7 (Link to this contribution) This is an extraordinarily wide group of amendments—I think there are 27 in this group. I sympathise...

Lord Warner | 733 c38-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not intend to follow that in a similar style. I support Amendment 144 in the name of ...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 733 c37-8 (Link to this contribution) No, the reason being that it may not be an emergency situation; it may be that an individual is bein...

Lord Patel | 733 c31-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to several amendments to which I have put my name, but I shall start with th...

Lord Warner | 733 c107 (Link to this contribution) I am really puzzled by that. What happens in a big swathe of the country if Monitor or the national ...

Earl Howe | 733 c107 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, let me explain. Monitor cannot on its own do anything. It cannot drum up competition from ...

Earl Howe | 733 c106 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendments take us to the fundamental issue of who should provide healthcare services....

Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top | 733 c105 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I might have more to say then too. However, we are dealing with what the Bill actually say...

Earl Howe | 733 c105 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, to put completely at rest the mind of the noble Baroness and, indeed, the minds of noble L...

Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top | 733 c106 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is precisely the sort of reassurance and clarity that we are seeking from the Ministe...

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 733 c105-6 (Link to this contribution) Might the noble Baroness consider more closely the actual wording of Clause 144? It refers to the Mi...

Baroness Thornton | 733 c103-4 (Link to this contribution) I think that I explained to the noble Baroness earlier today that these are probing amendments. When...

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 733 c103 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I remain puzzled by these amendments from the Labour Benches because it seems quite clear ...

Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top | 733 c105 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, am extremely concerned about the provisions within the Bill. How are the Governmen...

Lord Warner | 733 c104 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hesitate to intervene in this debate, but I am prompted by the intervention from the nob...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 733 c109 (Link to this contribution) The Ministers comments have been most helpful, so far as they have gone. Taking on board the comment...

Lord Greaves | 733 c108-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been a useful discussion. This clause takes a bit of reading but its meaning is q...

Earl Howe | 733 c108 (Link to this contribution) It is highly unlikely that that scenario would arise. What could happen is that the board could iden...

Lord Warner | 733 c108 (Link to this contribution) Can I just be clear that I have understood this? If the national Commissioning Board or the Secretar...

Earl Howe | 733 c107-8 (Link to this contribution) The board and clinical commissioning groups might well decide that it was important to have more hos...

Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top | 733 c107 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, could the Government never decide that it was important to increase the share of hospices ...

Baroness Thornton | 733 c107 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is puzzled and I am too. How will they do that? What mechanism will be used to chang...

Lord Walton of Detchant | 733 c96 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has completely taken the wind out of my sails. I had every intention of going at this h...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 733 c96 (Link to this contribution) I add my thanks for the Minister’s remarks. I look forward to seeing amendments which thread educati...

Baroness Emerton | 733 c96 (Link to this contribution) I rise without notes, which is very unusual for me, to thank the Minister very much indeed. There is...

Lord Warner | 733 c80-1 (Link to this contribution) I have an uneasy feeling that we are going to hear a lot about lists today. On lists, some things ar...

Earl Howe | 733 c81-3 (Link to this contribution) I recognise that and, after what I said a moment ago, we know that procurement can be an important l...

Lord Patel | 733 c94-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we return yet again to education and training. There is so much anxiety about the issue of...

Lord Patel | 733 c94 (Link to this contribution) 133ZA: Clause 20, page 18, line 37, at end insert— ““13L1 Duty in respect of education and training ...

Lord Patel | 733 c96 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for those comments and am greatly encouraged.

Earl Howe | 733 c96 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it may assist the Committee if I indicate at this early point in the debate that the Gover...

Baroness Thornton | 733 c100 (Link to this contribution) 136: Clause 20, page 19, line 42, leave out from beginning to end of line 1 on page 20

Baroness Jolly | 733 c100 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister very much for his reply. I am more than happy to withdraw my amendment. Amendm...

Lord Patel | 733 c97 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 133ZA withdrawn. Amendments 133A to 135A not move...

Earl Howe | 733 c97 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, no, because the Bill does not cover the duties of the regulatory authorities themselves, t...

Lord Rooker | 733 c97 (Link to this contribution) I, too, welcome the Minister’s statement. He will know that I have no qualifications in this but I h...

Lord Kakkar | 733 c96-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, want to congratulate the Minister on his very helpful statement on education and t...

Earl Howe | 733 c99-100 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendments concern the issues of integration and advice, and in particular the use of ...

Lord Beecham | 733 c98-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I sympathise with the motives of the noble Baroness who tabled the amendments but I am not...

Baroness Jolly | 733 c97-8 (Link to this contribution) I will be brief so perhaps we can make a little more progress this evening. These four amendments co...

Baroness Jolly | 733 c97 (Link to this contribution) 135AA: Clause 20, page 19, line 16, leave out ““encourage”” and insert ““mandate””