UK Parliament / Open data

Finance Bill

Debate on bills and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Tuesday, 13 July 2010, in the House of Commons.
Finance Bill. Committee stage second day. Clause 3 agreed on division (321 to 246), with amendments considered and withdrawn, and considered and negatived on division (21 to 316), (243 to 321), (241 to 321), (247 to 322), (248 to 320).

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

513 c815-920, (corrigendum) 1068;513 c815-920 

Session

2010-12

Department

Treasury

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Related items

Finance Bill 2010-12. Explanatory notes also published (Bill 3-EN 2009-10).
Monday, 28 June 2010
Bills
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Rachel Reeves | 513 c856-7 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is correct. In addition, the reductions in spending are not included in the Red Book ...
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c857 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the hon. Lady accepts, though, that this Government brought in the bank levy and he...

Show all contributions (289)
Helen Goodman | 513 c856 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend aware that the distribution figures published in the Red Book do not include housi...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 513 c855 (Link to this contribution) Thank you very much. All the facts about VAT were known by the parties before the election a few wee...
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c855 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman.
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c855 (Link to this contribution) As I am a Conservative Member of Parliament, not a Liberal Democrat, I would find it very hard to co...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 513 c855 (Link to this contribution) If I had known that was the question, I would not have said anything.
Rachel Reeves | 513 c855-6 (Link to this contribution) That is okay, Mr Hancock; people often cannot tell us apart. I rise to support amendments 25 and 43...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 513 c855 (Link to this contribution) I call Gavin Shuker—sorry, Rachel Reeves. I was misinformed; I apologise.
Rachel Reeves | 513 c856 (Link to this contribution) I think it is reasonable to look at them separately; one was introduced by a Labour Chancellor and t...
John Redwood | 513 c856 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Lady not understand that the Government have adopted practically all the proposals of ...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 513 c855 (Link to this contribution) Before you finish, Dr McCrea was eager to get in but you missed him. I know that you would not want ...
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c855 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend makes a very important point that I tried to make earlier. It is all very well ...
John Redwood | 513 c854 (Link to this contribution) Has my hon. Friend heard any explanation from Opposition Members as to why raising VAT from 15% to 1...
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c853-4 (Link to this contribution) I am perfectly happy with the balance that has been proposed in the Budget by the Chancellor of the ...
Iain Wright | 513 c853 (Link to this contribution) I am following the hon. Gentleman's argument closely. Given the basket of European nations that he h...
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c853 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to respond to that point, because I do not particularly know the answer and it would ...
Tom Blenkinsop | 513 c853 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman representing the Conservative party that says that we are all in it together, ...
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c854 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely; I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. When the previous Government lowered VAT to 15%, t...
Charlie Elphicke | 513 c854 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend recall how the fuel duty was thrust up as a stealth tax/poll tax on wheels? We a...
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c854 (Link to this contribution) A point made clearly in the debate by a great many people is that each time a Budget comes to the Ho...
Andrew George | 513 c854 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend talks about balance in the Budget. When he talked about the VAT rates in the basket o...
Jon Trickett | 513 c858-9 (Link to this contribution) We may be quoting the same article. It was not that the shadow Chancellor, as he was then, had said,...
Lord Beamish | 513 c858 (Link to this contribution) In his research for tonight's debate, did my hon. Friend look at The Times of 10 April when the Chan...
Jon Trickett | 513 c857-8 (Link to this contribution) It has been an interesting debate and many of the points that I wanted to make have already been add...
Rachel Reeves | 513 c857 (Link to this contribution) I have already given way to the right hon. Gentleman and I am just winding up now. My constituents ...
Rachel Reeves | 513 c857 (Link to this contribution) I would like to make a little progress and then I will give way. It is doubly ironic that the banki...
Rachel Reeves | 513 c857 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman might also be aware that the Labour Government introduced a tax on bankers' bonus...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 513 c846 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Perhaps he can be clear about this. When did he and his c...
Stephen Williams | 513 c847 (Link to this contribution) With respect, the hon. Gentleman has only just come into the Chamber, and I think I answered that po...
Liam Byrne | 513 c847 (Link to this contribution) We have never seen VAT at these levels. The hon. Gentleman's own party leader is on the record as sa...
Stephen Williams | 513 c846 (Link to this contribution) We have discussed many times whether there should have been more candour on the part of all three Fr...
Steve McCabe | 513 c846 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman said earlier that parties ducked the issue during the election campaign. Presumab...
Chris Leslie | 513 c849 (Link to this contribution) I entirely neglected to report in my earlier comments that the Baby Products Association, which is a...
Wayne David | 513 c849 (Link to this contribution) That is a very important point, and it embellishes the one that I have made in general terms. Labour...
Stephen Williams | 513 c847-8 (Link to this contribution) That intervention, and the right hon. Gentleman's amendment, would have rather more moral force behi...
Wayne David | 513 c848-9 (Link to this contribution) I will be brief. This morning, I was in the Welsh Assembly in Cardiff bay and I had discussions with...
Steve McCabe | 513 c849 (Link to this contribution) I am conscious that the Government argument is that the VAT rise was an alternative to a national in...
Wayne David | 513 c844 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that the Centre for Retail Research has estimated that the rise ...
Stephen Williams | 513 c844-5 (Link to this contribution) I have not read that study and I thank the hon. Gentleman for bringing it to my attention, but I rep...
Chris Leslie | 513 c845 (Link to this contribution) Would the hon. Gentleman be happy or unhappy if VAT stayed at 20%, perhaps for the full duration of ...
Nicholas Dakin | 513 c845 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that a political choice is being made to raise VAT as a regressive tax...
Stephen Williams | 513 c845-6 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was here earlier, when the shadow Chief Secretary raised th...
Liam Byrne | 513 c846 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who is being incredibly generous in giving way this afternoon. ...
Stephen Williams | 513 c846 (Link to this contribution) To be fair to all parties, I give way to the hon. Gentleman.
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c852 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the shadow Chief Secretary. Let us consider the other aspects of the Budget, such a...
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c851-2 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I accept the points that my hon. Friend makes. The point is that interest rates away from the ...
Liam Byrne | 513 c852 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is now touching on a debate that is at the core of one of the amendments that I t...
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c851 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke), too.
Charlie Elphicke | 513 c851 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that interest rates were so low for so long in the early years of the prev...
Rachel Reeves | 513 c851 (Link to this contribution) There is more than one type of interest rate. The hon. Gentleman is correct that the overnight rate ...
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c853 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend.
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c853 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman mentions the banks, and there is no doubt that they had problems, but the fact is...
Charlie Elphicke | 513 c853 (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that the banking crisis was massively exacerbated by a very poor regulatory syste...
Wayne David | 513 c850 (Link to this contribution) With all due respect, I say that it is far simpler and more straightforward for an across-the-board,...
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c850 (Link to this contribution) The debate has been going on for some time and many have argued—the shadow Chief Secretary to the Tr...
Toby Perkins | 513 c850 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Wayne David | 513 c849-50 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an interesting point, and it is well worth giving careful scrutiny to his comme...
Sammy Wilson | 513 c850 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman recognise what happened when the previous Government, to whom he belonged at...
Toby Perkins | 513 c851 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that over the course of 13 years the previous Labour Government ...
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c851 (Link to this contribution) I acknowledge that the Bank of England kept interest rates low. Let me move on. The impact of not t...
Liam Byrne | 513 c851 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is being enormously generous and I am following his argument closely. Does he ack...
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c851 (Link to this contribution) If memory serves me, interest rates have now been held at the same level for more than a year—that i...
Chris Leslie | 513 c838-9 (Link to this contribution) Indeed; I have seen for myself the impact on those border areas. I am not sure that the Treasury, in...
Chris Leslie | 513 c837-8 (Link to this contribution) I welcome many of the comments made by the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) in speaking to hi...
Andrew George | 513 c836-7 (Link to this contribution) Well, I think we have all heard what the hon. Gentleman has said. I shall move on to an amendment t...
Chris Leslie | 513 c840-1 (Link to this contribution) I have heard the hon. Gentleman espouse that rather spurious point before—and no doubt he will do so...
Andrew Bridgen | 513 c839-40 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman consider it fair that every child in this country is born with approximately...
Anne McGuire | 513 c839 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend also agree that the mechanics of raising and reducing value added tax is relativ...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 513 c836 (Link to this contribution) I have more faith in the hon. Gentleman, and I hope he would have more faith in me. If he were the C...
Jonathan Edwards | 513 c841 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the increase will hit town centres particularly hard, and will dr...
Stephen Williams | 513 c844 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. The Budget is a balance of proposals that both coalition parti...
Charlie Elphicke | 513 c844 (Link to this contribution) May I thank my hon. Friend for the efforts that he and his colleagues have made to increase the pers...
Stephen Williams | 513 c844 (Link to this contribution) We can debate this until very late tonight—and I am sure we will—but the fact is that we have to mak...
Iain Wright | 513 c844 (Link to this contribution) It is stated on page 66 of the Red Book that""Impacts on households from VAT account for around 1.0 ...
Stephen Williams | 513 c844 (Link to this contribution) I can assure the right hon. Lady that I would never dismiss a statement by the ONS as a piece of pol...
Stephen Williams | 513 c843-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention, but perhaps she misunderstood the point I was making. Al...
Rachel Reeves | 513 c843 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the reduction in VAT under the Labour Government reduced revenues...
Stephen Williams | 513 c843 (Link to this contribution) I am not trying to dodge that question, and I understand that it is a very sensitive issue in specif...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 513 c843 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman pre-empts me. We are not going down that route. I ask him to speak to the ...
Stephen Williams | 513 c843 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to say that the construction of a Budget involves a balance o...
Stewart Hosie | 513 c842-3 (Link to this contribution) I agree that we are indeed facing a deficit and a debt problem now. There is no question about that,...
Stephen Williams | 513 c843 (Link to this contribution) Well, I know that you are probably about to rule that out of order, Mr Hood, but—
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c843 (Link to this contribution) On the proposal to cancel Trident, will my hon. Friend cast some light on what impact that would hav...
Stephen Williams | 513 c842 (Link to this contribution) Not necessarily. Labour Members are currently having to adjust to being in opposition after 13 years...
Iain Wright | 513 c842 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman assist the Committee by clarifying a point? Is he now the Liberal Democrat s...
Stephen Williams | 513 c842 (Link to this contribution) The fact is that this year any expenditure decisions we may want to make in order to have a long-ter...
Stewart Hosie | 513 c842 (Link to this contribution) First, the entire premise of the fixed-term deficit consolidation strategy is wrong. I have already ...
Stephen Williams | 513 c841 (Link to this contribution) We are still working out how coalition politics work. It is welcome that we have a coalition, but I ...
Chris Leslie | 513 c841 (Link to this contribution) There could be all sorts of perverse consequences. The ramifications have not been thought through. ...
Nadhim Zahawi | 513 c862 (Link to this contribution) Did the hon. Gentleman make the same argument when his Government put up VAT?
Owen Smith | 513 c861-2 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury said at the start of the debate that...
Jon Trickett | 513 c859 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a telling point. I shall come back to the Liberal Democrats and the Secretary o...
Steve Rotheram | 513 c859 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the people least able to afford VAT increases, such as people in my c...
Jon Trickett | 513 c860 (Link to this contribution) Of course, and I shall come to that point. During my long sojourn on the Back Bench this afternoon, ...
Andrew George | 513 c860 (Link to this contribution) With his characteristic Yorkshire approach, the hon. Gentleman says that politicians should do as th...
Clive Efford | 513 c860 (Link to this contribution) In answer to the Liberal Democrats, it is not what Governments consider but what they do and what th...
Jon Trickett | 513 c860-1 (Link to this contribution) I follow my hon. Friend quite a lot of the way, but we have to be careful about suggesting that the ...
Liam Byrne | 513 c899 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 38, page 2, line 16, leave out subsection (5) and add—
David Gauke | 513 c890 (Link to this contribution) It is not possible to answer that question in a precise form. In the light of the points I have mad...
Bob Russell | 513 c889-90 (Link to this contribution) Where there's a will, there's way. The Treasury could find a way of offsetting the cost for the moun...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 513 c901 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: amendment 27, page 2, line 17, at end add-...
Owen Smith | 513 c900 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 26, page 2, line 17, at end add—
Liam Byrne | 513 c900 (Link to this contribution) I am not entirely convinced by that and I am sad that the Bill is adding complexity rather than deli...
David Gauke | 513 c900 (Link to this contribution) As we have heard, amendment 38 seeks to take anti-forestalling legislation introduced in the Finance...
Owen Smith | 513 c901-2 (Link to this contribution) In amendments 26 and 27, I seek to draw the Committee's attention to another of what I view as the d...
David Gauke | 513 c888 (Link to this contribution) The coalition Government are very keen to support charities. At the moment, charity tax reliefs are ...
Andrew George | 513 c888-9 (Link to this contribution) The primary point that I raised was the impact on charities, which is dealt with by proposed subsect...
David Gauke | 513 c888 (Link to this contribution) Before I do, I note the spirit in which my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) tabled...
Bob Russell | 513 c888 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister tell me where the coalition agreement says that charities will be disadvantaged by ...
David Gauke | 513 c888 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 35 to 37 aim to remove supplies to charities for non-business purposes from the scope of ...
Phil Wilson | 513 c887 (Link to this contribution) It is the same in Sedgefield. There is a very small charity that I visited on Friday, called the LAD...
Ian Lucas | 513 c887 (Link to this contribution) These charities are very important across the country. Of course, another charity in my constituency...
John Hemming | 513 c886 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that with the uprating by CPI, people in claimant households will be...
Ian Lucas | 513 c886-7 (Link to this contribution) I think that I should wait to see the position in due course. I have no doubt that as a result of th...
David Gauke | 513 c889 (Link to this contribution) We are looking at what we can do to simplify the gift aid system so that charities of all sizes can ...
Ian Lucas | 513 c886 (Link to this contribution) I was motivated to highlight this particular area because of the importance of the voluntary sector ...
John Hemming | 513 c886 (Link to this contribution) Is that change a result of the charity's becoming larger and becoming registrable, or is it a result...
Ian Lucas | 513 c886 (Link to this contribution) The 2.5% VAT increase that Government Members will march through the Lobby to support will mean that...
Mark Durkan | 513 c885 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend referred to the level of funding that the Labour Government achieved for the th...
Liam Byrne | 513 c885 (Link to this contribution) As ever, the hon. Gentleman is on the money. If departmental cuts, particularly to the Cabinet Offic...
Tony Cunningham | 513 c885 (Link to this contribution) May I tell my right hon. Friend just how delighted I am that he has raised the issue of mountain res...
Liam Byrne | 513 c886 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has pretty much made my argument for me. All of us know what an extraordinary service...
Liam Byrne | 513 c883-4 (Link to this contribution) This is a particular problem, and I was about to pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who has done some im...
Stephen Williams | 513 c884 (Link to this contribution) We will all agree that the whole area of charity taxation needs serious examination in this debate, ...
Liam Byrne | 513 c884-5 (Link to this contribution) With respect, the hon. Gentleman is making a partisan point in a quite unfair way. I was about to ma...
Liam Byrne | 513 c883 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak to amendments 35, 36, 37 and 58, tabled in my name and the names of my hon. Friends....
Ian Lucas | 513 c883 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend not agree that, in a sector in which charities are being encouraged to pla...
Andrew George | 513 c882-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has greatly entertained us with his intervention, but I do not think I will respo...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 513 c883 (Link to this contribution) The Chairman of Ways and Means has selected these amendments and has grouped them very narrowly. I h...
Andrew George | 513 c882 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to you for your advice, Mr Hancock. As I do not know all that my hon. Friend was going...
Andrew George | 513 c882 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman has been so assiduous in trying to intervene, I will give way to him.
Mark Durkan | 513 c882 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for being so generous in giving way. May I probe him on his probing amend...
Andrew George | 513 c882 (Link to this contribution) These two amendments are clearly probing amendments. The intention is to take further my concerns in...
Andrew George | 513 c881-2 (Link to this contribution) I think I can reassure my hon. Friend that it is a probing amendment. It was put together at some sp...
Andrew George | 513 c882 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that my hon. Friend wants to point out another technical deficiency in the amendment.
John Hemming | 513 c882 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend accept that expenditure deciles, which address the size of a household's budget,...
Lord Beith | 513 c880-1 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend appreciate that there are cost-neutral ways of removing that imbalance, which ar...
Andrew George | 513 c881 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my right hon. Friend. We are limited in what we can achieve by amending this B...
Simon Hughes | 513 c881 (Link to this contribution) This issue is a long-standing subject of debate. Following what was said by my right hon. Friend the...
John Hemming | 513 c881 (Link to this contribution) I should declare my interests. I am a senior partner in VAT-registered organisations, one of which w...
Andrew George | 513 c879 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is asking me whether I have made that assessment, but I have in fact been seeking suc...
Andrew George | 513 c879 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. He might have missed some of our earlier exch...
Bob Russell | 513 c878 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend confirm that the small charity to which he has just referred was in no way respo...
Andrew George | 513 c880 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady makes the point about the potential impact on charities rather more articulately than ...
Kate Green | 513 c880 (Link to this contribution) I welcome much of what the hon. Gentleman says about the importance of looking at a balance that ach...
Andrew George | 513 c880 (Link to this contribution) I have already acknowledged the benefit of gift aid as having an ameliorating impact on the conseque...
Alun Michael | 513 c880 (Link to this contribution) I dare say the hon. Gentleman feels obliged to make some party political points, but would he not ac...
Andrew George | 513 c879-80 (Link to this contribution) If we are seeking to make that kind of point, it is worth pointing out to the right hon. Gentleman t...
Alun Michael | 513 c879 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to embarrass the hon. Gentleman, who has been a vigorous champion of the voluntary sec...
David Gauke | 513 c873-4 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr Hancock. I could go on setting out the lengthy list of information about VAT that we h...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 513 c877 (Link to this contribution) For the convenience of the Committee, I should explain that we are going to move directly to debate ...
Stewart Hosie | 513 c874 (Link to this contribution) We have heard all the arguments over a long debate, but we remain convinced that this VAT rise is re...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 513 c877 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: amendment 35, in page 2, line 11, at begi...
Andrew George | 513 c877 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr Hancock, I will try again. I beg to move amendment 57, in page 2, line 8, at end inse...
Andrew George | 513 c878 (Link to this contribution) With the leave of the Committee, I would appreciate the opportunity to talk to amendment 56 as well ...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 513 c877 (Link to this contribution) Order. If Members are leaving, can they give Mr George the privilege of being heard?
Andrew George | 513 c877 (Link to this contribution) I am rather taken aback to be called at this moment, Mr Hancock—[Interruption.]
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 513 c877 (Link to this contribution) Order. It is impossible for anyone to hear what Mr George is saying. Could I ask Members who are lea...
Andrew George | 513 c877 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr Hancock—[Interruption.]
Liam Byrne | 513 c867-9 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful, Mr Hancock. This has been a good debate. I know that the amendments have been g...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 513 c871 (Link to this contribution) Order. It is very difficult for the Minister to hold the attention of the Committee with so much goi...
David Gauke | 513 c870-1 (Link to this contribution) I assure my hon. Friend that this Government are determined to raise as much as possible from the ba...
Andrew George | 513 c870 (Link to this contribution) I understand that hard decisions need to be taken. Last night, when the Financial Secretary spoke to...
David Gauke | 513 c869-70 (Link to this contribution) In his Budget of 22 June, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor announced that the standard rate of VA...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 513 c873 (Link to this contribution) Order. I think it is in the best interests of the Chair and everyone here if we get a chance to hear...
David Gauke | 513 c872-3 (Link to this contribution) We have announced the policy and the increase. All taxes are reviewed on an ongoing basis, and that ...
Andrew George | 513 c872 (Link to this contribution) The premise behind my amendments was that, as this is an emergency Budget, the VAT rise must be an e...
David Gauke | 513 c871-2 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr Hancock. Of course, we are not alone in reaching the conclusion that the right step i...
Owen Smith | 513 c862 (Link to this contribution) We have heard this argument a lot today and, yes, VAT, having gone down to 15% as part of the fiscal...
Thomas Docherty | 513 c863 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps my hon. Friend is not aware that the current Prime Minister was a special adviser to the Tor...
Andrew George | 513 c865 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making a thoughtful contribution to the debate. I think that, in summary, he a...
Mark Durkan | 513 c863-5 (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak to a number of the amendments, and the ground has been fairly well covered on many o...
Jonathan Edwards | 513 c866-7 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to have this opportunity to speak in support of amendment 13, which was tabled by my ...
Mark Durkan | 513 c865-6 (Link to this contribution) I accept that the hon. Gentleman is wrestling with his conscience, but the bets are that it will be ...
Liam Byrne | 513 c867 (Link to this contribution) Thank you very much, indeed, Mr Hancock. This has been a good—
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 513 c867 (Link to this contribution) In the absence of anyone else catching my eye, I call Mr Liam Byrne.
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c867 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr Hancock. Is it in order for the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury to ma...
Owen Smith | 513 c907 (Link to this contribution) I suggest that we return to this issue another day. However, I do not feel that the Exchequer Secret...
David Gauke | 513 c907 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps we will learn about that in one of the forthcoming memoirs—who knows? My hon. Friend the Me...
David Gauke | 513 c906 (Link to this contribution) As we have heard, amendments 26 and 27 require both that before the rate increase takes effect the C...
Anne McGuire | 513 c906 (Link to this contribution) With respect, I think that is a very narrow description of disabled people and the extent of their n...
John Hemming | 513 c905 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely true. Only 7% of DLA recipients are in work. Obviously those people would be gene...
Liam Byrne | 513 c905-6 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 47 is a probing amendment. It touches on a complicated area of VAT law which was in the pr...
David Gauke | 513 c907 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend puts a very good question and tempting though it is to speculate, I suspect tha...
Paul Uppal | 513 c907 (Link to this contribution) Much is made by Labour of the regressive nature of the VAT rise. Given that the Labour Government in...
David Gauke | 513 c906 (Link to this contribution) As I have said, many of the particular items that disabled people need are zero rated, and that will...
Lord Bruce of Bennachie | 513 c907 (Link to this contribution) Would my hon. Friend care to speculate on what the difference for disabled people would be between a...
John Hemming | 513 c904 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has made a good point. As the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) said, there...
Barry Gardiner | 513 c904 (Link to this contribution) When someone receives an RPI-linked increase—or a CPI-linked increase, as it will become—it will inc...
Owen Smith | 513 c905 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, given all the evidence, it is overwhelmingly likely that the vas...
Anas Sarwar | 513 c903 (Link to this contribution) I find that argument bizarre, as it runs so strongly against the very argument the Liberal Democrats...
John Hemming | 513 c903-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for making that point, which allows me to emphasise that certain househol...
Anne McGuire | 513 c904 (Link to this contribution) Would it not be more logical to do as we suggested in earlier amendments and assess the impact on pe...
John Hemming | 513 c904 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. Lady for that. One great thing about the Red Book this time is that it does a...
Anne McGuire | 513 c902 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend share the concern of many disabled people who are on disability allowance and wh...
Owen Smith | 513 c902 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend makes an excellent point. I pointed out in an earlier debate on the Finance Bi...
John Hemming | 513 c902-3 (Link to this contribution) I would like to talk to amendment 47, which has not yet been mentioned. Certain issues have been ign...
Andrew George | 513 c834 (Link to this contribution) I suppose the use of the adjective "questionable" is a matter for debate, and no doubt Treasury Mini...
Andrew George | 513 c833-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to you, Mr Hood, for your guidance. I should like to concentrate my brief remarks in ...
Wayne David | 513 c832 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend accept that senior citizens will also be badly hit by the disproportionate...
Liam Byrne | 513 c832 (Link to this contribution) Precisely. That is the point that Age UK made in its response to the Budget. It issued a stark warni...
Liam Byrne | 513 c831-2 (Link to this contribution) I think that once local authorities are confronted with 25 to 40% budget cuts later this year and we...
Andrew George | 513 c833 (Link to this contribution) I rise to address this group of amendments, or at least the two in my name. May I seek your advice, ...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 513 c833 (Link to this contribution) Order. We are considering the amendments in this group, but the hon. Gentleman is not in a position ...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 513 c832 (Link to this contribution) Order. May I advise the right hon. Gentleman that amendment 44 has not been selected?
Liam Byrne | 513 c832-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful, Mr Hood. I will therefore confine my remarks to amendment 40, which asks the Treasury...
Andrew George | 513 c836 (Link to this contribution) I acknowledge that, but of all the tough decisions that we are talking about, a VAT rise is among th...
Liam Byrne | 513 c836 (Link to this contribution) On that point, the hon. Gentleman must surely accept that a pretty comprehensive tax plan was set ou...
Andrew George | 513 c834 (Link to this contribution) I mentioned rural motorists—I strayed mistakenly—so I have a feeling this intervention will be about...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 513 c834 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman might be expecting an intervention on the rural fuel derogation that I am expecti...
Andrew George | 513 c834-5 (Link to this contribution) It is not up to me, as one Member of Parliament, to serve notice. I do not have the power to change ...
Sammy Wilson | 513 c835 (Link to this contribution) Is not the hon. Gentleman's point an illustration of the Government's approach in the Budget? The pu...
Andrew George | 513 c835 (Link to this contribution) I am a novice in Finance Bill debates and have not generally spoken in them in the past—I tend to go...
Anne McGuire | 513 c835 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the logic of his case. He has pinned the Government down on the...
Andrew George | 513 c836 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for her kind words. Obviously, it will be up to the Exchequer ...
John Pugh | 513 c823 (Link to this contribution) I know that the right hon. Gentleman is a man of enormous candour and frankness and we also know tha...
Stephen Williams | 513 c821-2 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has been speaking for slightly more than 20 minutes, telling us where VAT falls a...
Stewart Hosie | 513 c822 (Link to this contribution) I explained at the beginning of my speech that the whole approach of a fixed-term deficit consolidat...
Liam Byrne | 513 c824 (Link to this contribution) I am greatly reassured by that, Mr Hood, as I was worried that the Chief Whip would again, later thi...
Liam Byrne | 513 c823 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows that the Chancellor is a member of the Cabinet and, as in all Cabinets—I am...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 513 c823 (Link to this contribution) Order. May I comfort the right hon. Gentleman by saying that a temporary Chair cannot accept a closu...
Stewart Hosie | 513 c821 (Link to this contribution) It is actually worse than that. Goods of all sorts tend to be dearer in rural areas to begin with, t...
Mike Weir | 513 c820-1 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend recognise that there is also a disparity in the areas that will be worst hit? In...
Stewart Hosie | 513 c820 (Link to this contribution) I would have been absolutely delighted to be in government and to have a progressive tax system that...
Anne McGuire | 513 c825 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my right hon. Friend on illustrating the unequivocal nature of the comments made by t...
Liam Byrne | 513 c825 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend puts it rather well. My point is that, because individuals did not rule things ...
Andrew George | 513 c825-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the shadow Chief Secretary for giving way. It would have been nice if the Labour Go...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 513 c826 (Link to this contribution) In the light of what is reported to be in Baron Mandelson's memoirs, may I check that the right hon....
Liam Byrne | 513 c826 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will reveal my hand on our voting strategy slightly later o...
Liam Byrne | 513 c824-5 (Link to this contribution) For the hon. Gentleman to begin quoting private correspondence, even that written in bad taste and i...
George Freeman | 513 c824 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman has said that the Government do not have any mandate to change the VAT rate...
Liam Byrne | 513 c825 (Link to this contribution) I know that the hon. Lady is not trying to run away from this debate, because she has been writing t...
Jo Swinson | 513 c825 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is talking about the election campaign and what was said about VAT. Does he...
Anne McGuire | 513 c829 (Link to this contribution) Would my right hon. Friend care to put on the record how many times a Labour Government increased VA...
Liam Byrne | 513 c829 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend was making an important point, and she is absolutely right. We also said very clearly...
Liam Byrne | 513 c828-9 (Link to this contribution) Happily, the question is hypothetical, because the then Chancellor reached a decision on the right p...
Rachel Reeves | 513 c829 (Link to this contribution) Unlike Government Members, I plan to ask about the amendment, rather than talking about reports in T...
David Burrowes | 513 c828 (Link to this contribution) Not being so new to the House, I am aware, obviously, of the reports today in The Times revealing th...
Liam Byrne | 513 c828 (Link to this contribution) I know the hon. Member is new to the House, but the report to which he refers is called the Budget, ...
Charlie Elphicke | 513 c828 (Link to this contribution) I should like to press the right hon. Gentleman on the plans that Baron Mandelson referred to. If th...
Liam Byrne | 513 c826-8 (Link to this contribution) I am now tempted to keep the hon. Gentleman in suspense for a little longer. I hope he will bear wit...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 513 c826 (Link to this contribution) We have just heard Liberal Democrats say that before a vote we should tell the public about the diff...
Liam Byrne | 513 c831 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, from a sedentary position, is absolutely right. The Library produced exactly the kin...
Jacob Rees-Mogg | 513 c831 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman has paid attention to the report by the Office for Nationa...
Liam Byrne | 513 c831 (Link to this contribution) That may or may not be the case. My point is that the Treasury has decided, without really publicisi...
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c831 (Link to this contribution) A moment ago, the right hon. Gentleman described the effect that the increase in VAT would have on t...
Liam Byrne | 513 c830 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who has exposed my utter lack of originality. This position is ...
Mark Durkan | 513 c829 (Link to this contribution) Does the shadow Chief Secretary recall that, on the day of the Budget, the Government also published...
Liam Byrne | 513 c829 (Link to this contribution) Again, my right hon. Friend is absolutely right. One of reasons why we have always approached VAT in...
Stewart Hosie | 513 c817 (Link to this contribution) I would be here for some time if I were to explain the convoluted thinking of the Liberal Democrats,...
Jo Swinson | 513 c817 (Link to this contribution) May I complete the picture presented by the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil)? While...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 513 c818 (Link to this contribution) Given the Liberal Democrats' arguments on deficits and structural deficits, and the subjectivity of ...
Stewart Hosie | 513 c818 (Link to this contribution) Obviously income tax is paid on income and VAT is paid on all spending, including by people who do n...
Alec Shelbrooke | 513 c818 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman elaborate on the fact that the income tax threshold has been raised by £1,00...
Stewart Hosie | 513 c817-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is right about the size of the structural deficit. I have never disputed that. She is ...
John Pugh | 513 c820 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman saying that 17.5% would not have made a difference—that it was not regressive ...
Stewart Hosie | 513 c819 (Link to this contribution) I will be delighted to search back in Hansard and give the hon. Gentleman chapter and verse on what ...
John Pugh | 513 c819 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making a big thing about VAT being 20%. It has been 17.5% for as long as he an...
Stewart Hosie | 513 c818-9 (Link to this contribution) I would be very supportive of a sunset clause if this measure were a serious attempt to tackle the s...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 513 c817 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend made a good point about the Liberal Democrats' "VAT bombshell" warnings. Those warnin...
Stewart Hosie | 513 c815 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 13, in page 2, line 7, leave out subsection (1).
Stewart Hosie | 513 c816-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to amendments 13 and 14, tabled by me and my hon. Friends. Amendment 14 is a probing a...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 513 c815-6 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment 54, page 2, line 7, leave out '2...
Sammy Wilson | 513 c838 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that there is an impact in Northern Ireland and in particular many of...
Chris Leslie | 513 c839 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. There is a sense that this ratcheting up might be for ever. Once the so-called emergency...
Anne McGuire | 513 c844 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept as an authoritative commentator on the effects of VAT the Office for ...
Jon Trickett | 513 c860 (Link to this contribution) I shall answer that point specifically because I believe in being honest. For the last two years I w...
Owen Smith | 513 c863 (Link to this contribution) The burden of my comments tonight is that the NHS is receiving a cut in its budgets as a result of t...
Mark Durkan | 513 c834 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that the two-year period, which he is taking as his rule of thumb ...
Liam Byrne | 513 c822-3 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie). I want to support amendm...
Stephen Williams | 513 c845 (Link to this contribution) My happiness or unhappiness will be measured in 2015 when we go to the polls—perhaps after the polls...
Stephen Williams | 513 c846 (Link to this contribution) I thank the shadow Chief Secretary for his intervention, but an £8 billion bill does not necessarily...
Sandra Osborne | 513 c859 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend recall that when the Tories doubled VAT in the long distant past some members of...
Andrew George | 513 c890 (Link to this contribution) We have had a very good debate. It has certainly been well worth probing issues on charities, public...
Andrew George | 513 c881 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. I hope that the Exchequer Secretary is listen...
Adrian Sanders | 513 c879 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my hon. Friend on tabling the amendment. Has he made any assessment of the churning o...
Liam Byrne | 513 c826 (Link to this contribution) That is a very subtle argument. I think I just about followed the hon. Gentleman step by step and li...
Charlie Elphicke | 513 c830 (Link to this contribution) As the right hon. Gentleman points out with his customary candour, I am new to the House. Will he th...

Notes

Daily part printing error - In division No. 20 at 513 c908, to add Sharon Hodgson to the Ayes.

Subjects

Charities
Exemptions
Excise duties
Fuels
Economic situation
Pensioners
Low incomes
Poverty
Taxation
VAT
Rural areas
Rescue services
Tax burden
Sunset clauses

Legislation

Finance Bill 2010-12 to 2012-13

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
Back to top