Parliamentary search - Parliamentary Standards Bill

Reference

712 c1272-324

Session

2008-09

Parliamentary Standards bill. As amended in Committee.
Thursday, 16 July 2009
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1310-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the views that have been expressed. I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Sa...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1311 (Link to this contribution) Clause 9: Further functions of the IPSA and Commissioner Amendment 79A 79A: Clause 9, page 7, line...

Show all contributions (119)

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 712 c1309 (Link to this contribution) There is a distinction between the commissioner under the Bill and other types of conduct. There may...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1309-10 (Link to this contribution) I start by saying that I recognise the concerns expressed by my noble friend. In fact, those are con...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 712 c1309 (Link to this contribution) It occurs to me in listening to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, that in relation to criminal ...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1309 (Link to this contribution) The problem with that is that suspension requires a judgment and, for there to be a judgment, there ...

Baroness Hamwee | 712 c1308-9 (Link to this contribution) Like the noble Lord, Lord Cope, I have some difficulty envisaging a Member spending money on being p...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1309 (Link to this contribution) I clearly had it in mind, and I think my noble friend did as well when we tabled the amendment, to r...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1311-2 (Link to this contribution) Your Lordships may be relieved to know that after those heavyweight debates on whether a knowingly f...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1312 (Link to this contribution) I have had a little time to pursue this matter while, as the noble Lord, Lord Cope, suggested, we we...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1312-3 (Link to this contribution) I made it clear when I started that this is not a matter of great moment and I have tabled the amend...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1320 (Link to this contribution) I accept that statutory instruments cannot be amended, but they can be voted on. Before any statutor...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1313-6 (Link to this contribution) In moving Amendment 80, I shall refer also to government Amendments 82B and 83B. At Second Reading, ...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1313 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 80 80: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— "Duration of sections 5 to 9 Sect...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1317-9 (Link to this contribution) I say at the outset that I hope what I say in response to noble Lords opposite will answer their que...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1316-7 (Link to this contribution) My name is attached to the amendment, which I think is entirely sensible and would offer a great pro...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1320 (Link to this contribution) I heard the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, refer to statutory instruments as being perfunctory, but I do no...

Baroness Hamwee | 712 c1319-20 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness’s defence of her approach to IPSA membership, the commissioner and so on, makes i...

Baroness Hamwee | 712 c1320 (Link to this contribution) If IPSA and the commissioner are not working fine and the Government come up with their proposed sol...

Lord Goodhart | 712 c1320 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness suggested that it would need serious primary legislation if the sunset clause had...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1320 (Link to this contribution) I merely point out that very simple primary legislation is very seldom very simple, and that it take...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1322-3 (Link to this contribution) I am very glad to respond to the Clause 11 stand part debate of the noble Lord, Lord Higgins. I hope...

Lord Higgins | 712 c1322 (Link to this contribution) We have been debating matters of great constitutional importance. It is in the nature of the way Bil...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1321 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, not only for the amendments that she has introduced but fo...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1324 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 83B 83B: After Clause 12, insert the following new Clause— "Expiry of provisions of the A...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1323 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 82B 82B: Clause 12, page 9, line 27, at end insert— "(d) section (Expiry of provisions of...

Lord Higgins | 712 c1323 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for that helpful explanation. Clause 11 agreed. Clause 12 : Sho...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1272-3 (Link to this contribution) We now debate one of the most interesting and important clauses in the Bill, Clause 8, which deals w...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1272 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 76 not moved. Clause 8: Offences Amendment 76A 76A: Clause 8, page 6, line 29, at end i...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1273 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord said that the first amendment was probing; but his second amendment is very interesti...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1273 (Link to this contribution) They are both probing at this stage. In other words, I want to hear the Government’s justification f...

Baroness Hamwee | 712 c1273-4 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the noble Lord described these as probing amendments. I was a little confused about t...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1276 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord not accept that Amendment 77ZA does not dilute the penalty whatever but includes...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1276 (Link to this contribution) Before I respond to the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, I would like, for the...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 712 c1276 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry. I was speaking of the clause as it exists in the Bill at present. I accept totally what ...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c1274 (Link to this contribution) I will add my voice to the concern about the way in which Clause 8(1) is expressed, for two reasons....

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1274 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 77ZA is very interesting. It deals with the only remaining area of the Bill where there ma...

Lord Campbell of Alloway | 712 c1274 (Link to this contribution) These are probing amendments. As such, they afford the opportunity for debate that was referred to y...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1276-8 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely correct. This has been a very good debate and lots of interesting questions have...

Lord Peston | 712 c1278 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend sits down, perhaps I may ask her a question, as I desperately try to follow t...

Lord Higgins | 712 c1276 (Link to this contribution) Do I understand that the noble Baroness is talking about the Bill as originally introduced into this...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 712 c1279 (Link to this contribution) I can understand the difficulty. I wonder whether this argument is not properly referable to the sta...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1279 (Link to this contribution) Forgive me, but it is not the case that I did not understand. As cases are ongoing, I cannot cite an...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1279 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness sits down, I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, was asking abo...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c1278 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness sits down, perhaps I may ask again my question as to what will be the publ...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1278 (Link to this contribution) I understand what my noble friend wants and what other noble Lords asked earlier. Of course, this Bi...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1287 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness makes an extremely important point. Of course the new system of allowances is one...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1284-5 (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak about whether the clause should stand part of the Bill. I agree with the noble and l...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 712 c1285 (Link to this contribution) I wholeheartedly congratulate the Government on their withdrawal of subsections (2) and (3). It was ...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1285-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the welcome from noble Lords on all Benches for the changes that we have made and ...

Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes | 712 c1287 (Link to this contribution) Would the Minister not agree, especially in respect of what she has said about the public’s view abo...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1282-3 (Link to this contribution) I echo some of the points just made by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. We, too, are concerned abou...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1284 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend will know that I have been most concerned about the whole question of the advocacy a...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1282 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 76C, 77, 77ZB and the Clause 8 stand part debate are grouped with government Amendment 76...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1281 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 76B 76B: Clause 8, page 6, line 30, leave out subsections (2) and (3)

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1281 (Link to this contribution) The effect of the amendments in this group is to remove from the Bill the two offences of failing, w...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1280-1 (Link to this contribution) When I put down this amendment originally, we were faced with a rather different Clause 8, if we acc...

Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 712 c1281 (Link to this contribution) Before I call the next amendment, I have to inform the Committee that if Amendment 76B is agreed to,...

Lord Campbell of Alloway | 712 c1280 (Link to this contribution) It is difficult, as I said, to bring the curtain down. Dishonesty is a difficult concept for anyone ...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1280 (Link to this contribution) I note the many concerns of the noble Lord. These offences will be dealt with in the same way as any...

Lord Condon | 712 c1279 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness sits down, perhaps I may establish whether I have correctly understood. Is...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1279 (Link to this contribution) The Government clearly believe that there is a difference and that the bar is set at a different lev...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 712 c1279 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness sits down, perhaps I may rashly suggest a question that may be of assistan...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1292 (Link to this contribution) That has been the very crux of our arguments today. What I am suggesting is that I will go away and ...

Lord Crickhowell | 712 c1292 (Link to this contribution) Listening to the speech of my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, I thought that he d...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1292 (Link to this contribution) I have not yet concluded what I was saying. I will come back to answer the points made by the noble ...

Lord Goodhart | 712 c1290 (Link to this contribution) I should speak on this briefly because I am one of the Members who gave notice of their intention to...

Lord Norton of Louth | 712 c1291 (Link to this contribution) I reinforce what my noble friend has just said, because that is my concern both about the Bill and t...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1290-1 (Link to this contribution) What the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, has said is very interesting. I have already spoken once on the ...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1291 (Link to this contribution) I have tried to be helpful to my noble friend throughout the Bill but I want to say something now wh...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1291 (Link to this contribution) On the last point of the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, one of the key purposes of the Bill is to...

Lord Eden of Winton | 712 c1292 (Link to this contribution) Is the guidance likely to draw the Member’s attention to the fact that, if a knowingly false claim i...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1291-2 (Link to this contribution) Clarity is of the essence whenever offences are being discussed. A person must know whether or not w...

Baroness Kennedy of the Shaws | 712 c1289 (Link to this contribution) I, too, would like to express concern about the message that is sent to the public. I greatly agree ...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c1290 (Link to this contribution) There is an important distinction to be made between a perfectly dotty expenses system from which pe...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1288 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 77ZB 77ZB: Clause 8, page 6, line 42, leave out subsection (5) Amendment 77ZB agreed. A...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 712 c1288-9 (Link to this contribution) This is the appropriate place to talk about the clause, as amended, that we are now considering. Ear...

Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 712 c1287 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 77ZB; the noble Lord, Lord Tyler.

Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 712 c1287 (Link to this contribution) I cannot call Amendments 76C and 77 for reason of pre-emption. Amendment 77ZA not moved.

Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 712 c1287 (Link to this contribution) I will re-call the amendment. Amendment 77ZB?

Lord Tyler | 712 c1287 (Link to this contribution) I anticipated that the noble Baroness would herself be moving that amendment. I apologise to the Com...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 712 c1287 (Link to this contribution) I think that the last amendment we debated was also in the name of the Leader of the House, so it sh...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1287 (Link to this contribution) Not moved.

Lord Tyler | 712 c1302 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I may ask the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for specific guidance for greater c...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1295 (Link to this contribution) I cannot promise that the argument on the proposed new clauses in Amendments 78 and 79 will be any l...

Lord Howe of Aberavon | 712 c1300 (Link to this contribution) As my noble friend Lord Jenkin has drawn my name into the discussion, I ought to make a modest contr...

Lord Campbell of Alloway | 712 c1300 (Link to this contribution) I shall be brief. There are two fundamental points. The first is that, as soon as one took up the fi...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1301 (Link to this contribution) On Tuesday on Amendment 1, the noble Baroness, on behalf of the Government, readily, rightly and wis...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 712 c1301-2 (Link to this contribution) Anything that I say about this is subject to correction by the noble and learned Baroness the Attorn...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1295 (Link to this contribution) Obviously the noble Lord was not here for the very beginning of the debate and so may not have been ...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1295-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord because I was not aware of that. That would be extremely helpful, bu...

Lord Higgins | 712 c1298-9 (Link to this contribution) The House will be grateful to my noble friend for moving these amendments in the context of the Euro...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1299-300 (Link to this contribution) I will intervene briefly again. Last week, my noble friend undertook to provide us with additional i...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1294 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 78 78: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause— "Article IX of the Bill of Rights...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1294 (Link to this contribution) He is not less dishonest; there is a lower burden of proof, as I understand it. Under Clause 8(1), y...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1294 (Link to this contribution) I am never irritated by my noble friend Lord Peston; I am a very patient person. It is absolutely cl...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c1294 (Link to this contribution) The MP is less dishonest.

Earl of Onslow | 712 c1293-4 (Link to this contribution) When the noble Baroness was asked earlier, she said that an offence committed under the Fraud Act ha...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 712 c1294 (Link to this contribution) I rise not at all on the substantive issue—like others, I have just parachuted in occasionally—but o...

Baroness Kennedy of the Shaws | 712 c1293 (Link to this contribution) I have great sympathy with the noble Baroness the Leader of the House because this is a difficult ar...

Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes | 712 c1293 (Link to this contribution) The crux of our arguments so far on Clause 8 is really rather simple. Is it right that MPs should be...

Lord Peston | 712 c1292-3 (Link to this contribution) Before we proceed, I have one or two questions for clarification. Would I be right that, if your Lor...

Lord Campbell of Alloway | 712 c1293 (Link to this contribution) If this clause, as it stands and has been amended, does not stand part, that is fair enough. The Gov...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1303 (Link to this contribution) At the beginning of my speech I said that there were four amendments standing in my name that were g...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1303 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. It made me feel slightly less ignorant that he, t...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1305 (Link to this contribution) The commissioner will look into financial issues. He will not look into anything that pertains to th...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1305-6 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to all those who took part in this short debate. I make no apology for havin...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1303-5 (Link to this contribution) After that discussion I do not feel at all confused. I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who ...

Lord Higgins | 712 c1305 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely nothing that IPSA or the Commissioner for Parliamentary Investigations does can be regard...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1307-8 (Link to this contribution) This is another area that interests me. I remember a number of cases where proceedings in committee ...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1308 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, that the question of civil actions could lead to...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1306 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 79ZA 79ZA: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause— "Criminal investigations and ...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1306-7 (Link to this contribution) The amendment standing in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Cope can be very much more quickl...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 712 c1275-6 (Link to this contribution) I certainly have some sympathy with the submission of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway. Afte...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 712 c1283-4 (Link to this contribution) I warmly welcome this amendment. I am sure that it improves the Bill as a whole. I want to add one t...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1321-2 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 80B 80B: Clause 10, page 8, line 17, after "to" insert "the Committee on Standards in Pub...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c1284 (Link to this contribution) I support the taking out of subsections (2) and (3), but I want to make one further point on subsect...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1280 (Link to this contribution) I am not saying that it is symbolic and presentational at all. I said that we believe that the new o...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1278 (Link to this contribution) This new offence criminalises conduct that on its own is currently not an offence. It does not mean ...