UK Parliament / Open data

Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill [HL]

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Wednesday, 21 January 2009, in the House of Lords.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

706 c107-62GC 

Session

2008-09

Department

Department for Communities and Local Government

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Related items

Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill (HL). Explanatory Notes HL Bill 2-EN also published.
Thursday, 4 December 2008
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Graham of Edmonton | 706 c141GC (Link to this contribution) PACT?
Lord Greaves | 706 c139-41GC (Link to this contribution) The interesting issue that has come out of this, where there is a sticking point, is the question of...

Show all contributions (105)
Lord Greaves | 706 c141GC (Link to this contribution) Sorry, I am ahead of myself. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 43 withdrawn. Amendm...
Lord Greaves | 706 c149-50GC (Link to this contribution) I shall certainly withdraw the amendment in a moment. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hanningf...
Lord Patel of Bradford | 706 c148-9GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments 54 and 55 clearly seek to limit the Secretary of State’s—or, in the case of Wales, Welsh ...
Baroness Warsi | 706 c119GC (Link to this contribution) I have one amendment in the group. It would remove Clause 2(2)(e), which includes in the list of con...
Lord Greaves | 706 c117GC (Link to this contribution) We come to the part of the Bill that lists the connected authorities. There are two lists, in subsec...
Lord Hanningfield | 706 c123GC (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Lord, Lord Tope, in that. I declare an interest as patron of the Essex academies...
Lord Greaves | 706 c128GC (Link to this contribution) They may do in Sutton, yes, but by and large people choose it according to the perceived quality of ...
Lord Greaves | 706 c134-6GC (Link to this contribution) I shall also speak to Amendments 44, 45 and 46 in my name. These take us to the second list, which t...
Baroness Maddock | 706 c133-4GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Government think about what happens when you are near the border, particularly with health ...
Lord Tope | 706 c107GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 2: Democratic arrangements of connected authorities Amendment 24 24: Clause 2, page 2, line...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c139GC (Link to this contribution) There is a very clear distinction between housing associations, which are private bodies, and FE col...
Lord Greaves | 706 c142GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 47 47: Clause 2, page 3, line 15, at end insert— ““( ) a local strategic partnership; ( )...
Lord Patel of Bradford | 706 c142GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Grand Committee to adjourn for 10 minutes. Sitting suspende...
Lord Borrie | 706 c144-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether I have misunderstood the noble Lord, Lord Greaves—I hope not—but the amendment...
Lord Greaves | 706 c143-4GC (Link to this contribution) The Chairman’s apologies are entirely accepted. In moving Amendment 51, I shall also speak to Amendm...
Lord Greaves | 706 c146-7GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that reply, which I shall come back to in a minute. The noble Lor...
Lord Greaves | 706 c147-8GC (Link to this contribution) We finally come to Amendment 54, which seeks to restrict the powers of the Secretary of State under ...
Lord Greaves | 706 c147GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 54 54: Clause 2, page 3, line 43, at end insert ““but this power shall only be used if th...
Lord Hanningfield | 706 c148GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise for jumping up to speak before the Deputy Chairman had repeated the text of the amendmen...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c153-4GC (Link to this contribution) That is a good question. We are not imposing these requirements on the public bodies. In our dialogu...
Baroness Warsi | 706 c153GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister explain the ways in which the local authority could go further? Some of these clus...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c151-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the opportunity offered by the clause stand part debate to explain why we have inc...
Lord Tope | 706 c155GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 4: Lay justices Amendments 60 and 61 not moved. Amendment 62 62: Clause 4, page 4, line 38...
Lord Tope | 706 c154GC (Link to this contribution) They happen to be located in Surrey, not in the London Borough of Sutton or in Greater London. At th...
Lord Tope | 706 c155GC (Link to this contribution) I should say that I really wish to oppose the Question that Clause 4 should stand part of the Bill f...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c157-8GC (Link to this contribution) I shall try not to repeat anything that I said in our previous debate, although many of the same iss...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c120-2GC (Link to this contribution) All I can say is that if we did not have a list in the first place, we would certainly spend a long ...
Lord Tope | 706 c119-20GC (Link to this contribution) The debate so far has exposed the difficulties of being prescriptive. When you produce lists, you ar...
Lord Greaves | 706 c117-9GC (Link to this contribution) I put those descriptions in inverted commas. I was trying to work out the thinking of the people who...
Lord Greaves | 706 c117GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful for that. I may have learnt something this afternoon that I was not quite clear a...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c125-6GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the opportunity to clarify this point if the noble Baroness is struggling with it....
Baroness Andrews | 706 c126GC (Link to this contribution) I reiterate not only that we are not taking away any responsibility but that we are challenging FE c...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c123GC (Link to this contribution) In a way, the noble Lord makes my point for me, because there is nothing to stop local authorities—i...
Lord Greaves | 706 c124-5GC (Link to this contribution) Thank you. It is a long list—there is no doubt about that. Yet some bodies are not included. Therefo...
Lord Hanningfield | 706 c129GC (Link to this contribution) I shall give the Minister some information about Loughton School. Although it is in Essex, about 15 ...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c137-9GC (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to say that I am going to bring great joy to practically everyone in the Committee. Tha...
Lord Hanningfield | 706 c136GC (Link to this contribution) I have some general support for the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and his amendments in this group. If t...
Lord Borrie | 706 c136-7GC (Link to this contribution) Briefly, the only local authority of which I have ever been a member is a parish council. I was a ch...
Lord Greaves | 706 c134GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 43 43: Clause 2, page 3, line 2, at end insert— ““( ) a parish meeting;””
Lord Tope | 706 c107-8GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lady Hamwee is recovering but is not yet recovered enough to be here. Therefore, I r...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c112GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to write a detailed letter explaining the democratic arrangements as they are interpreted...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c109-11GC (Link to this contribution) This is the first of four important groups of amendments that seek to make alterations in relation t...
Lord Greaves | 706 c114GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 31 31: Clause 2, page 2, line 25, leave out ““person”” and insert ““body””
Lord Tope | 706 c113-4GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply, although at times I think that we were a little at cross purpos...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c158GC (Link to this contribution) I may need to go back a step and reiterate what I said. In Clauses 1 and 2, we are concerned that pe...
Lord Greaves | 706 c158GC (Link to this contribution) Now I am totally confused, but that might be my fault; it is getting late and my brain is getting fu...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c159GC (Link to this contribution) I have sent a reply to this point about four times. We are not taking anything away from the constit...
Baroness Warsi | 706 c160GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry if the Minister thinks that I am labouring this point. I am aware of the Operation Black ...
Lord Tope | 706 c160-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for trying to explain this fully. I think I understand the purpose of ...
Baroness Warsi | 706 c139GC (Link to this contribution) I again raise an issue of principle—it may well be that it is my understanding that is not clear. Th...
Lord Greaves | 706 c141GC (Link to this contribution) Yes. The noble Lord should go to his local PACT; I am sure that he has them in Essex. We have a neig...
Lord Greaves | 706 c142-3GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 47 brings us back to partnerships, which we have discussed to a large extent. The Minister...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c143GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for his creativity. We shall certainly look at his definition. I am ...
Baroness Warsi | 706 c151GC (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Lord, Lord Tope, in his opposition to Clause 3 standing part of the Bill. I had ...
Lord Tope | 706 c150-1GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 3: Monitoring boards, court boards and youth offending teams Amendment 59 not moved. Debate...
Lord Borrie | 706 c155-6GC (Link to this contribution) I have some sympathy with what the noble Lord, Lord Tope, said. I recall that in the past there has ...
Lord Greaves | 706 c158GC (Link to this contribution) I may be confused by the terminology and do not understand the meaning of words as they are being us...
Baroness Warsi | 706 c156-7GC (Link to this contribution) I add my support to the arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Tope. Amendment 62, as I read it, has two ...
Lord Greaves | 706 c117GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 32 32: Clause 2, page 2, line 27, at end insert— ““( ) a joint board or joint committee o...
Lord Hanningfield | 706 c126GC (Link to this contribution) I shall follow my noble friend on FE colleges. I know a lot of them well—again, I declare an interes...
Lord Tope | 706 c122-3GC (Link to this contribution) I want to return to the issue of academy schools, which I have not thought about much before. I am a...
Lord Greaves | 706 c123-4GC (Link to this contribution) The last point was important and I thank the noble Baroness for dealing with it with great care. It ...
Baroness Warsi | 706 c125GC (Link to this contribution) I was trying to rise before the noble Lord sat down, but he is quicker than I am. I want to raise th...
Lord Graham of Edmonton | 706 c128-9GC (Link to this contribution) I have a great deal of sympathy with what the noble Lord has said. I am glad that the noble Lord, Lo...
Lord Greaves | 706 c126-8GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 34 gives us a brief respite from lists to look at a particular problem with the Bill. I sh...
Lord Greaves | 706 c126GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 34 34: Clause 2, page 2, line 33, leave out from ““school”” to end of line 34 and insert ...
Baroness Maddock | 706 c137GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend if we are going to describe what is in the lists. We have had a discussion...
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall | 706 c107GC (Link to this contribution) I remind the Committee that, if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committ...
Lord Greaves | 706 c112GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend referred to primary care trusts as well as strategic health authorities. Can the nob...
Baroness Warsi | 706 c109GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Tope, is rightly approaching the same point as I raised earlier in the week, al...
Baroness Maddock | 706 c112-3GC (Link to this contribution) I am not hostile to these things being included, but I am hostile to the interpretation. If the Gove...
Baroness Warsi | 706 c159GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that clarification. In the light of it, I go back to the comments made by t...
Baroness Warsi | 706 c159GC (Link to this contribution) I also thank the Minister for that reply. I understand that this measure is not taking away the duty...
Lord Greaves | 706 c143GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 51 51: Clause 2, page 3, line 37, at end insert— ““( ) A principal local authority may by...
Lord Greaves | 706 c143GC (Link to this contribution) I cannot ask for more than that and therefore I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 47 w...
Lord Patel of Bradford | 706 c145-6GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, wants to transfer the powers of the Secretary of State to local author...
Lord Tope | 706 c154GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for her explanation, although I do not think that we have yet covered ...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c152-3GC (Link to this contribution) Not at all. I was just about to say that at the moment that is not the case. All these bodies are ke...
Baroness Warsi | 706 c152GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for giving way. Is she saying that we do not trust these organisations to promo...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c158GC (Link to this contribution) No, it is not about promoting involvement as in earlier clauses; it is about explaining the civic go...
Baroness Warsi | 706 c158GC (Link to this contribution) Again, am I correct that the duty in the clause is about promoting involvement?
Lord Greaves | 706 c114-6GC (Link to this contribution) It is inevitable that in a series of amendments on this clause we will have a series of interlinked ...
Lord Patel of Bradford | 706 c116-7GC (Link to this contribution) There were recurring themes in the noble Lord’s contribution on the definition of partnerships, whic...
Lord Tope | 706 c130GC (Link to this contribution) The problem has been well illustrated, but I do not want the debate to go entirely to Yorkshire folk...
Baroness Warsi | 706 c129-30GC (Link to this contribution) The points made by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, are interesting. I come from across the border and ...
Lord Greaves | 706 c126GC (Link to this contribution) I now beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 32 withdrawn. Amendment 33 not moved.
Lord Greaves | 706 c132-3GC (Link to this contribution) I have to say that I do not know who writes the stuff for the Minister, but I was not terribly impre...
Lord Greaves | 706 c134GC (Link to this contribution) I am tempted to say that we should wheel in my noble friends Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Liv...
Lord Patel of Bradford | 706 c131-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am from Yorkshire so I will be fine. This has been a helpful debate in which important points have...
Baroness Maddock | 706 c112GC (Link to this contribution) I am at a loss. I cannot agree that all these bodies have democratic arrangements. Where is the demo...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c113GC (Link to this contribution) I have made two commitments. I will write to the noble Baroness and copy to all interested parties a...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c112GC (Link to this contribution) Appointments to PCTs are made by the Secretary of State; the appointments are of local people on the...
Baroness Warsi | 706 c158-9GC (Link to this contribution) To take that point further, my question moments earlier was what duty is being placed here—the duty ...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c159GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness is quite right to pick me up on that. My language was loose. I will say what I sa...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c159-60GC (Link to this contribution) I can give the noble Baroness some general argument and a specific example of the sort of things we ...
Baroness Andrews | 706 c160GC (Link to this contribution) If I had had time, I would have gone into much more detail than I was able to. The noble Baroness is...
Lord Patel of Bradford | 706 c162GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Monday at 3.30 pm.

Subjects

Courts
Councillors
Health services
Governing bodies
Further education
Information
Housing associations
Ethnic groups
Local government
Public appointments
Public bodies
Publicity
Primary care trusts
Local government services
Public participation
Monitoring
Parish and town councils
Magistrates
Schools
Voluntary organisations
Young offenders
Social rented housing
Waste management
Social services
Regional development agencies
Academies
Local strategic partnerships
Homes and Communities Agency
Crime and disorder reduction partnerships

Legislation

Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill (HL) 2008-09

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
Back to top