Planning Bill. Programme motion (No 2) for proceedings on Report and Third reading. Agreed to on division (248 votes to 193). Report stage first day. New Clauses 8-10, 14-15, 17-27, 37 agreed to. New Clause 1 negatived on division (256 votes to 241).
Planning Bill
Debate on bills on Monday, 2 June 2008,
in the House of Commons,
led by John Healey.
The answering
member was Jacqui Lait.
About these Parliamentary proceedings
Reference
476 c498-611Session
2007-08Legislative stage
Report stageChamber / Committee
House of Commons chamberRelated items
Proceeding contributions
Speaker | 476 c505 (Link to this contribution)
Order. The hon. Gentleman is going too far. It is fine if he sticks to the subject of the programme ...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 476 c505 (Link to this contribution)
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The House will need to examine its procedures, including those applying to ...
Show all contributions (164)
Lord Cormack | 476 c505 (Link to this contribution)
I did not intend to speak, but I shall say a few words.
When the late Douglas Jay stated all those ...
Robert Key | 476 c505 (Link to this contribution)
Will my hon. Friend confirm that no Committee of the House would consider a guillotine motion until ...
Lord Cormack | 476 c506 (Link to this contribution)
I was going to make that very point. I thank my hon. Friend for making it for me. Yes, guillotine mo...
Peter Bone | 476 c506-7 (Link to this contribution)
Pages 2375 to 2473 of today's Order Paper contain the amendments and new clauses that the Government...
John Healey | 476 c507 (Link to this contribution)
My reasons for moving this motion were straightforward. I had hoped that they would be welcomed in t...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 476 c504-5 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to have caught your eye, Mr. Speaker.
I used to take part in debates such as this wit...
Nicholas Winterton | 476 c505 (Link to this contribution)
Will my hon. Friend support my suggestion to the Procedure Committee that it should examine the way ...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 476 c505 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. The Committee should examine not just programme motion...
Angela Watkinson | 476 c502 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the inordinate amount of Government amendments that have appeared on ...
Nicholas Winterton | 476 c502 (Link to this contribution)
In another role, I have made the observation that the Government of the day—not only Labour Governme...
John Redwood | 476 c500-1 (Link to this contribution)
I rise to support the opposition to the programme motion. It is another travesty of democracy that w...
Nicholas Winterton | 476 c501-2 (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) is absolutely right. Indeed, the contrib...
John Redwood | 476 c503 (Link to this contribution)
I have a lot of sympathy with the hon. Gentleman, who has given his time to this absurd procedure. W...
Elfyn Llwyd | 476 c503-4 (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct. In some instances, when matters were being pushed, t...
Paul Truswell | 476 c503 (Link to this contribution)
It is not my intention to detain the House by using rhetorical flourishes like those that we have ju...
Elfyn Llwyd | 476 c503 (Link to this contribution)
I support what has just been said. Frankly, I am astonished at the programme motion. Having served o...
Jacqui Lait | 476 c498-9 (Link to this contribution)
It is a pleasure to welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Edward Timpson). It is...
Dan Rogerson | 476 c499-500 (Link to this contribution)
I had some disagreements with the hon. Member for Beckenham (Mrs. Lait) in Committee, but on this oc...
Elfyn Llwyd | 476 c528 (Link to this contribution)
I wanted to respond to something that the Minister said earlier. He gave the impression that Welsh M...
John Healey | 476 c528 (Link to this contribution)
I tried to explain when I made my opening remarks that that is an important feature, which is likely...
John Healey | 476 c528 (Link to this contribution)
There is an interesting divergence in views from the Welsh perspective on the Opposition Benches. I ...
John Healey | 476 c528 (Link to this contribution)
I am under no misapprehension, and I do not think that I have given any cause for misunderstanding, ...
Jim Sheridan | 476 c518 (Link to this contribution)
On those practical points, would the Minister consider meeting people from the industry at an early ...
John Healey | 476 c517-8 (Link to this contribution)
It is hard to see how eco-towns would fall within the Bill's provisions, not least because they are ...
David Jones | 476 c518-20 (Link to this contribution)
This is the first group of a large number of Government amendments—they are overwhelmingly of a tech...
John Healey | 476 c518 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend pre-empts me. I was going to suggest that he broker a meeting with my leading officia...
David Jones | 476 c520-2 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is quite right. As I have said, that is the very problem that travellers along the no...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 476 c520 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure that my hon. Friend knows this better than I do, but in that respect the Bill applies not ...
Dan Rogerson | 476 c523-6 (Link to this contribution)
As was pointed out in our earlier debate, a number of the amendments that we are discussing will cha...
John McDonnell | 476 c522-3 (Link to this contribution)
I wish to speak to amendments Nos. 77 and 80 to 87, which deal with airport-related developments. It...
John Healey | 476 c527 (Link to this contribution)
I suppose that it is fair for hon. Members to have a go at me and at the Government over the number ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 476 c526-7 (Link to this contribution)
I wish to refer to new clauses 9 and 10, which are self-explanatory and introduce a great deal of cl...
John Healey | 476 c516 (Link to this contribution)
Any changes to, and therefore increase in, the use of an airport that lead to an additional 10 milli...
John McDonnell | 476 c516 (Link to this contribution)
On a point of clarity, will the Minister confirm that what we are referring to is, for example, the ...
John Healey | 476 c516 (Link to this contribution)
I will happily give way to my hon. Friend in a moment. He is an expert on these matters and has a st...
John McDonnell | 476 c515 (Link to this contribution)
Will my hon. Friend give way at an appropriate moment?
Jacqui Lait | 476 c517 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister confirm, purely for the record, that his proposals on clusters will not be applied...
John Healey | 476 c516-7 (Link to this contribution)
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will stick around for the whole debate, because we will come later to...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 476 c516 (Link to this contribution)
What we are discussing is one of the most controversial aspects of the Bill in relation to air trave...
John Healey | 476 c516 (Link to this contribution)
To the extent that I can give such clarification and that it is necessary to go beyond what I have a...
John McDonnell | 476 c516 (Link to this contribution)
It would be invaluable if Members whose constituencies, in west London and beyond, are affected by H...
John Healey | 476 c507-8 (Link to this contribution)
I have lived through this Bill since its start, including all the Committee sittings and evidence se...
John Redwood | 476 c507 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister is trying to sound reasonable, but he could prove that he is reasonable by allowing the...
John Healey | 476 c508 (Link to this contribution)
I am hardly curbing the House's time; I am ensuring that more than two full days—particularly if we ...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 476 c508 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister is a cerebral man, and he has obviously done a great deal of reflecting on the Committe...
David Jones | 476 c515 (Link to this contribution)
As recently amended, the Bill specifically brings aircraft and air passenger movements into the real...
John Healey | 476 c514-5 (Link to this contribution)
When we published the White Paper on the planning system and our proposals for reform last year, we ...
Speaker | 476 c512-3 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 10—Railways.
Govern...
John Healey | 476 c512 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 476 c514 (Link to this contribution)
I chided the Minister rather hard in the previous debate, but may I ask him a question gently, in a ...
John Healey | 476 c513-4 (Link to this contribution)
I am delighted to move new clause 9, which sets off the debate on a series of provisions on developm...
John Healey | 476 c570-2 (Link to this contribution)
A substantial amount of time was set aside in the programme motion for the discussion of this group ...
John Healey | 476 c574 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman is right. That new clause has nothing to do with parliamentary procedure, the scr...
Elfyn Llwyd | 476 c574 (Link to this contribution)
I am listening carefully to the Minister, and want just to put one point to him. The policy, as he r...
John Healey | 476 c575 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman is right, and that is precisely why we propose the new system in the Bill for the...
John McDonnell | 476 c575 (Link to this contribution)
The practical example that Ministers gave when we debated this matter in January was the aviation Wh...
John Healey | 476 c572-3 (Link to this contribution)
In fact, the Secretary of State would look to that report, which would formally be a report to the H...
Clive Betts | 476 c573 (Link to this contribution)
The point that my hon. Friend is making relates to my amendment (a) to new clause 8, in which I sugg...
John Healey | 476 c573-4 (Link to this contribution)
I have discussed with the Select Committee Chairs—we have not formalised or finalised the proposal—a...
Peter Luff | 476 c574 (Link to this contribution)
Although I am personally sorry that Parliament has not been given the chance to vote on the national...
Speaker | 476 c570 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment (a) to the proposed new clause,...
Parmjit Dhanda | 476 c568 (Link to this contribution)
The clock may be against us, so I shall write to hon. Members with assurances if I cannot answer the...
John Healey | 476 c570 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 476 c567 (Link to this contribution)
It is hard to understand why the Planning Bill, having gone through all its procedures thus far, has...
Elfyn Llwyd | 476 c567-8 (Link to this contribution)
I shall take a slightly different tack. I anticipate legal challenges regarding paragraph (1) to new...
David Jones | 476 c565-6 (Link to this contribution)
As we have heard from the Under-Secretary, these amendments provide a framework for the change of an...
Dan Rogerson | 476 c566-7 (Link to this contribution)
In the debate on an earlier group of new clauses and amendments, the hon. Member for Hayes and Harli...
Speaker | 476 c564 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 25 —Changes to, and ...
Parmjit Dhanda | 476 c564-5 (Link to this contribution)
These Government amendments, new clauses and new schedules cover a wide range of areas that we belie...
John Healey | 476 c577 (Link to this contribution)
In a rather shorter way, the hon. Gentleman says exactly what I was trying to say.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 476 c577 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister has made it quite clear that the IPC cannot operate in the absence of a policy statemen...
John Healey | 476 c577-9 (Link to this contribution)
I would expect the first draft national policy statements to be produced and proposed by Secretaries...
Jacqui Lait | 476 c579-80 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister for being so clear on all the amendments tabled by the Government, by ...
Clive Betts | 476 c580 (Link to this contribution)
I can sympathise with the argument that the House should have a vote on policy statements, but is th...
Jacqui Lait | 476 c580-2 (Link to this contribution)
I was about to move on to the text of our amendment. I am happy to accept, as the Minister pointed o...
David Drew | 476 c582-3 (Link to this contribution)
I want to discuss new clause 1 and amendment No. 1, which stand in my name and those of my hon. Frie...
Elfyn Llwyd | 476 c583 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with the hon. Gentleman and further reinforce his argument by saying that the Government of ...
David Drew | 476 c583 (Link to this contribution)
That is an excellent point that is very helpful to my argument. If it is good enough for Wales, it i...
Paul Truswell | 476 c583 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend share my concern that while it is obviously appropriate for national policy stat...
John McDonnell | 476 c576 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry to press the Minister for absolute clarity. In his response, does he mean that any develo...
John Healey | 476 c576 (Link to this contribution)
No, the IPC could consider an application for a major development in the aviation field only if a na...
John Healey | 476 c576 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend has had three goes. There are a number of other issues, and number of other hon. Memb...
John McDonnell | 476 c576 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry to press the Minister again. I therefore return to the original question: does the proces...
John Healey | 476 c576 (Link to this contribution)
That would have to be a judgment that was taken, but we are setting out in the Bill three very clear...
Peter Luff | 476 c577 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way yet again, and I genuinely intend to be helpful. S...
John McDonnell | 476 c577 (Link to this contribution)
I just want to make this explicit: the aviation White Paper did not come with a sustainability appra...
John Healey | 476 c577 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend draws his very clear conclusions from the very clear explanation that I have set out ...
Parmjit Dhanda | 476 c540-1 (Link to this contribution)
Those involved in the process will have the mandatory right to submit evidence and attend a hearing ...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 476 c541 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way; he is being very indulgent. His answer has been helpfu...
Parmjit Dhanda | 476 c541 (Link to this contribution)
I thought that I had confirmed that just a moment ago. I hope that that is helpful.
John McDonnell | 476 c541 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend has not addressed the points that I raised. I should be grateful if he could do so at...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 476 c540 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister has skated over the critical point that I raised. Will objectors to compulsory purchase...
Parmjit Dhanda | 476 c540 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) for his kind remarks about my tie. I am in...
David Jones | 476 c540 (Link to this contribution)
We are coming to the relevant amendments later, but do not the new clauses specifically mean that th...
Parmjit Dhanda | 476 c540 (Link to this contribution)
The role of the IPC commissioner is important and we must remember that although the Bill and the le...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 476 c539-40 (Link to this contribution)
I would like to probe the Minister on the procedure for compulsory acquisition. Following on from wh...
John McDonnell | 476 c539 (Link to this contribution)
I have just a couple of points to make. We are talking about placing an immense power in the hands o...
Dan Rogerson | 476 c538-9 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister was clearly aware of the seemingly dry nature of the part of the Bill that he has been ...
Parmjit Dhanda | 476 c535-7 (Link to this contribution)
This set of amendments largely makes technical changes to ensure that the provisions of part 7 of th...
David Jones | 476 c537-8 (Link to this contribution)
As the Minister has so comprehensively pointed out, this is a series of detailed amendments required...
Parmjit Dhanda | 476 c535 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Speaker | 476 c535 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Government new clause 17—Rights in connec...
John Healey | 476 c530 (Link to this contribution)
If I judge that there is a need to write to my hon. Friend, I will do so this week, and he will rece...
John McDonnell | 476 c530 (Link to this contribution)
I would be grateful if that letter were received before the debate on Third Reading, because I would...
John Healey | 476 c529-30 (Link to this contribution)
The question of where we set the threshold for wind farms has been set in the context of looking at ...
David Jones | 476 c529 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to the Minister, who is being very generous. May I revert to the point that I rai...
John Healey | 476 c529 (Link to this contribution)
I shall give way again, but I wanted to answer the points that have been made during the debate rath...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 476 c562 (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful; the Minister has been generous. The hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Rogerson...
Parmjit Dhanda | 476 c562 (Link to this contribution)
I am not going to get into rewriting Finance Bills here and now in the Chamber. Local authorities, a...
Speaker | 476 c560 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Government amendments Nos. 167 to 183 and...
Parmjit Dhanda | 476 c560 (Link to this contribution)
: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
David Jones | 476 c561 (Link to this contribution)
As I want to raise other matters later, I shall not delay the House for long.
I am delighted that t...
Parmjit Dhanda | 476 c560-1 (Link to this contribution)
: Amendment No. 167 responds to points made in Committee by the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehu...
Parmjit Dhanda | 476 c561 (Link to this contribution)
As much as it pains me to admit it, the hon. Member for Clwyd, West is quite right. I cannot think o...
Dan Rogerson | 476 c561 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with the hon. Member for Clwyd, West (Mr. Jones) that we should use the time available as ec...
Parmjit Dhanda | 476 c561 (Link to this contribution)
My neighbour, the hon. Member for Cotswold, has the habit of intervening just as I am about to sit d...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 476 c561 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Under-Secretary give way?
John Healey | 476 c551-2 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman tempts me into territory that we shall deal with at length in debates to come. Es...
John Healey | 476 c549-51 (Link to this contribution)
A series of important points, some of which I touched on, have been made, but I shall deal with them...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 476 c551 (Link to this contribution)
I am extremely grateful to the Minister for those helpful remarks, but some of the powers in new sch...
Speaker | 476 c544 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 21—Harbours.
Govern...
John Healey | 476 c544 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Parmjit Dhanda | 476 c541-2 (Link to this contribution)
I appreciate my hon. Friend's question about BAA and the changes that would apply. I will seek to pr...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 476 c549 (Link to this contribution)
I wonder whether the Minister could help the House. Clause 109 contains a long list of what may be i...
Dan Rogerson | 476 c548 (Link to this contribution)
As we heard in our debate on the programme motion, we are working under considerable time constraint...
David Jones | 476 c547-8 (Link to this contribution)
We are again debating a large number of extensive and technical amendments to the Bill, and I am sur...
John Healey | 476 c544-7 (Link to this contribution)
We come to a series of new clauses, new schedules and amendments that reflect the further work that ...
Peter Bone | 476 c598 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for my hon. Friend's intervention, but I am afraid that I disagree again. My argument ...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 476 c598 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is of course fully entitled to his views, and I welcome any disagreement; that is the...
Peter Bone | 476 c597-8 (Link to this contribution)
I had not planned to speak but, unusually, I disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Cotswold (M...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 476 c596-7 (Link to this contribution)
I might be the last to speak in this debate, so may I congratulate the Government on producing a gro...
Elfyn Llwyd | 476 c594-5 (Link to this contribution)
Following on from what the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) has just said, I wi...
John McDonnell | 476 c593-4 (Link to this contribution)
That intervention is incredibly helpful; I do not know how the hon. Gentleman will fit that into tom...
Lembit Opik | 476 c593 (Link to this contribution)
As I have made clear, I am quite a big supporter of aviation. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that Min...
John McDonnell | 476 c592-3 (Link to this contribution)
I accept that, but I still think that the issue of principle can be resolved by negotiation in that ...
John McDonnell | 476 c591-2 (Link to this contribution)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) on his amendment. As an aside, the pr...
Lord Benyon | 476 c590-1 (Link to this contribution)
I wish to speak to my amendment No. 3. The Minister and members of the Committee will recall that I ...
Clive Betts | 476 c589 (Link to this contribution)
I understand that the Parliament Acts operate only on legislation. I may be wrong about that and som...
Jacqui Lait | 476 c589 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He has provoked me. I had been sitting here...
Clive Betts | 476 c589-90 (Link to this contribution)
In due course we may arrive where the hon. Lady would like to be, where I would like to be, and wher...
Jacqui Lait | 476 c589 (Link to this contribution)
I do not want this to turn into a dialogue, but the hon. Gentleman may remember that my comments wer...
Dan Rogerson | 476 c585 (Link to this contribution)
The debate on this group of amendments is the main event this evening. Three elements have emerged f...
Clive Betts | 476 c587-9 (Link to this contribution)
I shall confine my comments to the importance of national policy statements, and to how the House is...
Dan Rogerson | 476 c585-7 (Link to this contribution)
I must say that I was unaware of that concert, but the whole House and others, through Hansard and b...
David Drew | 476 c584-5 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with that, and I shall deal with amendment No. 1 in a bit more detail in a moment. My hon. F...
David Drew | 476 c602 (Link to this contribution)
I hear what the Minister says. However, if we are going to state categorically in the Climate Change...
John Healey | 476 c601-2 (Link to this contribution)
I can give the hon. Gentleman that assurance and I pay tribute to him and the hon. Member for Ruisli...
John McDonnell | 476 c600 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister give way?
John Healey | 476 c600 (Link to this contribution)
It is not different at all. Everyone will have a right to submit evidence to the commission; they ca...
Lord Benyon | 476 c601 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for those assurances, but will the Minister give me one more? Will he, in consultation...
John Healey | 476 c600-1 (Link to this contribution)
Will my hon. Friend forgive me if I do not? I have given way to him so often today, and I want to de...
John Healey | 476 c598-9 (Link to this contribution)
We have had a serious debate on the serious issues covered by this group of amendments. I pay tribut...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 476 c599 (Link to this contribution)
This has been a very good debate. Whatever our disagreements about having a vote, one thing that has...
John Healey | 476 c599-600 (Link to this contribution)
I have some respect for the other place and for the expertise of its membership, but this House has ...
John Healey | 476 c602-3 (Link to this contribution)
But the interlinking of the provisions of this Bill with the provisions of the Climate Change Bill w...
John Healey | 476 c576 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend's concern about the aviation White Paper fits into a different category. The White Pa...
Clive Betts | 476 c592 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend accept that there is problem? I hope that we could eventually find a way whereby...
David Jones | 476 c528 (Link to this contribution)
I apologise if I gave the impression that the Welsh Ministers were expressing enthusiasm for the IPC...
Lembit Opik | 476 c585 (Link to this contribution)
I apologise to the House for joining the debate late, but Virgin Trains has once again done its utmo...
Elfyn Llwyd | 476 c600 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for the detailed response that he is giving the House.
At the end of the day, ...
Parmjit Dhanda | 476 c564 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
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