UK Parliament / Open data

Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Thursday, 19 July 2007, in the House of Lords.
Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill. Lords Committee stage sixth day. Part 2 of 2 records.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

694 c418-82 

Session

2006-07

Department

Department for Communities and Local Government

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Related items

Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 74-EN also published.
Wednesday, 23 May 2007
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Greaves | 694 c470 (Link to this contribution) I think that I am grateful for that. It certainly means that I can throw away one of the books that ...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c470 (Link to this contribution) We do not have any idea of the number of entities. It varies enormously according to the size of the...

Show all contributions (130)
Baroness Andrews | 694 c466-9 (Link to this contribution) It is. Trusts come within the definition of ““entity””. That explanation should give noble Lords a ...
Lord Greaves | 694 c465 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister going to tell us what the answer was?
Baroness Andrews | 694 c465-6 (Link to this contribution) It ran into the several hundreds. The noble Lord did not ask four questions; he seemed to ask about ...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 694 c465 (Link to this contribution) I commend what my noble friend has said; he has asked some very pertinent questions. Clause 214(2)(...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c465 (Link to this contribution) I shall try to enlighten noble Lords, address the questions and put briefly on the record what the B...
Lord Greaves | 694 c470-1 (Link to this contribution) Okay. I am not sure that I ever rest assured about anything until I see it in black and white, but I...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 694 c462 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238A: 238A: Clause 210, page 146, line 41, leave out subsections (1) to (6) T...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 694 c462 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238B: 238B: Clause 210, page 147, line 47, at end insert— ““( ) Schedule (Cons...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 694 c462 (Link to this contribution) Clause 211 refers to joint waste authorities in Wales. It gives power to Welsh Ministers to make by ...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 694 c463 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has said it all. Clause 211 agreed to. Clause 212 agreed to. Clause 213 [Entities ...
Lord Graham of Edmonton | 694 c461 (Link to this contribution) This is the same repertory company that gathered for the Bill for the Mayor of London, when we had a...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 694 c461-2 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for his intervention, which neatly brings me on to Clause 209. That clause r...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c462 (Link to this contribution) This discussion has been extremely helpful. I gave notice of my opposition to all the clauses in thi...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c463 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238BA: 238BA: Clause 213, page 148, line 21, leave out ““requires,”” The nobl...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 694 c463 (Link to this contribution) My comments on Clause 213 mirror what I have just said about Clause 211 in that Welsh Ministers will...
Lord Greaves | 694 c463-5 (Link to this contribution) The Questions whether Clauses 213 and 214 should stand part of the Bill are in this group. I want to...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c474-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238K: 238K: Clause 219, page 153, line 25, leave out from ““by”” to end of lin...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 694 c482 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
Baroness Andrews | 694 c476-81 (Link to this contribution) I have a rather long speaking note because it is important to take seriously the considerations that...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c481-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that response and I am sure that the council will be grateful as well. Obviously, ...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c471-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238C: 238C: Clause 213, page 149, line 1, leave out subsection (6) The noble ...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c472 (Link to this contribution) The Minister may have answered my question: once one uses ““identified”” one has to find a way of de...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c472 (Link to this contribution) I am sure the noble Baroness has it right. On Question, amendment agreed to. Clause 213, as amende...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c472 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238D: 238D: Clause 214, page 149, line 45, leave out subsection (4) On Questi...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c472-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 238E to 238G: 238E: Clause 215, page 150, line 45, at end insert— ““(5A) Whe...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c473-4 (Link to this contribution) I have not already addressed the point; it is a new one. It may be helpful if I provide an example o...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c474 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Am...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c474 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238H: 238H: Clause 217, page 151, line 38, leave out from ““by”” to end of lin...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c474 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238J: 238J: Clause 218, page 152, line 37, leave out from ““by”” to end of lin...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c423-4 (Link to this contribution) This was an interesting debate that was full of real common sense. In moving his amendment, the nobl...
Lord Graham of Edmonton | 694 c429-30 (Link to this contribution) This is a serious matter, which we are all taking seriously. Having been a member of a political gro...
Lord Greaves | 694 c425-6 (Link to this contribution) I thought that the Minister was going to invite me to withdraw the amendment, but she invites me to ...
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 694 c426 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 235B: 235B: Clause 184, page 124, line 22, leave out ““include”” and insert ““...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c424 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Minister to distinguish between the code of conduct and the Standards Board for England. T...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c424-5 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely right. I take that point. The amendment does not envisage substituting the ethica...
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 694 c427-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 236: 236: Clause 184, page 124, line 22, leave out from ““include”” to end and...
Baroness Hanham | 694 c429 (Link to this contribution) I have three amendments in the next group which are very similar to those spoken to by the noble Bar...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c427 (Link to this contribution) Clause 184, which these amendments seek to amend, provides for the principles which govern the condu...
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 694 c427 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness. These important provisions carry a heavy sanction and operate w...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c422-3 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend did not say that this is party policy. The noble Lord, Lord Graham, asked how we wou...
Baroness Hanham | 694 c423 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that situations such as this, where there may be a complaint against a councillo...
Lord Greaves | 694 c418-20 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 235AB: 235AB: Before Clause 184, insert the following new Clause— ““Conduct of...
Lord Graham of Edmonton | 694 c420-1 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has raised an interesting and important aspect of local government. Th...
Baroness Hanham | 694 c421-2 (Link to this contribution) I find it difficult to support this amendment. I understand what the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, means...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 694 c457 (Link to this contribution) I stress that I will write with clarity on that matter. I have been advised many times that the impo...
Lord Hanningfield | 694 c457 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Baroness can give clarity by Report, that might help.
Lord Hanningfield | 694 c456-7 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord would like to help me try to get 12 district councils and one county council to ag...
Lord Graham of Edmonton | 694 c456 (Link to this contribution) I realise that I contribute a great deal of waste, but I understood the Minister to say that the ame...
Lord Hanningfield | 694 c456 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord will benefit from it because he lives in Essex.
Lord Hanningfield | 694 c456 (Link to this contribution) I apologise profusely for the fact that my mobile phone went off. The Committee will not believe it ...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 694 c455-6 (Link to this contribution) My interpretation is that it does not. I am getting a nod and a shake from the officials. It is an i...
Lord Bruce-Lockhart | 694 c455 (Link to this contribution) I am confused. Clause 206(2) states: "““A proposal under this section may be made by (and only by) a...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 694 c454-5 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I can reassure the noble Lord on his questions. I understand that he has considerable ex...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 694 c460-1 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for that intervention. Perhaps I should remind noble Lords that joint waste a...
Lord Bruce-Lockhart | 694 c458-9 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may respond to that. My own view and, I believe, that of the Local Government Association,...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 694 c459-60 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to have the opportunity to go through the clauses and to offer positively some explan...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 694 c457 (Link to this contribution) One of the issues here is about the locality and ensuring that local authorities in any particular l...
Lord Bruce-Lockhart | 694 c457 (Link to this contribution) I have trouble accepting that the noble Baroness is saying that ““all”” might mean ““any”” in this p...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 694 c457 (Link to this contribution) I promise the noble Lord that if I cannot do that I will be very ashamed.
Lord Hanningfield | 694 c450 (Link to this contribution) I have already raised this issue with the Minister. The arrangements that we entered into—a Cabinet ...
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 694 c449-50 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238ZL: 238ZL: Before Clause 203, insert the following new Clause— ““Code of co...
Lord Graham of Edmonton | 694 c450 (Link to this contribution) When I looked at the difference in meaning between ““required”” and ““expected””, the words of Horat...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c445-6 (Link to this contribution) Yes, it answers the question, but it makes me think that it is fairly difficult for legislation to t...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c445 (Link to this contribution) This amendment relates to the sanctions available to the Adjudication Panel for England. Clause 196 ...
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 694 c448-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for agreeing to take a look at the grammar and for explaining the use ...
Lord Greaves | 694 c448 (Link to this contribution) We are back to what was underlying some of the discussion earlier: the arbitrary nature of some of t...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c446-7 (Link to this contribution) I dread the idea of the noble Baroness getting tetchy so I shall deal first with her third amendment...
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 694 c446 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238ZH: 238ZH: Clause 199, page 138, line 5, leave out ““may in particular”” an...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c453 (Link to this contribution) Yes, Clause 203 provides that the granting and supervision of exemptions of local authority posts fr...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c453 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful. The Minister is being very accommodating this afternoon. I beg leave to wit...
Lord Hanningfield | 694 c451 (Link to this contribution) I have received a letter from her, no doubt prompted by the Minister, asking me to talk to her about...
Lord Hanningfield | 694 c451 (Link to this contribution) I said members other than the executive; I did not say the opposition groups. In Essex, most of the ...
Lord Greaves | 694 c451 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Lord and my noble friend. However, the idea of a band of dedicated officers work...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c452 (Link to this contribution) This very interesting debate went broader than the clause or the amendment. To an extent, some of th...
Lord Greaves | 694 c451-2 (Link to this contribution) I understand that. I also understand that the opposition sometimes comes from the back benches of th...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c452-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238ZM: 238ZM: Clause 203, page 142, line 8, leave out ““general advice”” and i...
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 694 c452 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that constructive reply and for undertaking to see how this ...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c439-40 (Link to this contribution) I think that all this will bear careful reading, but possibly not for a week or so. I hear what the ...
Lord Greaves | 694 c439 (Link to this contribution) Have I been asleep for five minutes? I beg the noble Baroness’s pardon. I will pick up that point la...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c439 (Link to this contribution) I thought that that related to an earlier amendment.
Lord Greaves | 694 c439 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may refer to one point made by my noble friend which I do not think the Minister picked up...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c438-9 (Link to this contribution) I hope that this is easier, too. It is only when you get into the cut and thrust of Committee stage ...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c437-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238ZC: 238ZC: Clause 187, page 130, line 20, leave out ““different relevant au...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c437 (Link to this contribution) I read that as such, but I shall have to come back to the noble Baroness.
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c437 (Link to this contribution) We all understand the complexity of some of this, or at least we understand that it is complex; that...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c436 (Link to this contribution) The local committee, not the complainant, decides whether to refer the case upwards. The process of ...
Baroness Hanham | 694 c436-7 (Link to this contribution) I think that the Minister questioned what I said about the allegation then being reheard. I draw her...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c445 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238ZG: 238ZG: Clause 196, page 136, line 17, leave out ““include”” and insert ...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c443-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238ZFC: 238ZFC: Clause 194, page 134, line 39, at end insert— ““( ) the standa...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c443 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the Minister’s explanation. It reinforces comments made earlier about the importan...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c444-5 (Link to this contribution) This is something else that we will need to think about more. The Minister used the terms ““instruct...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c444 (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 238ZFC and 238ZFD relate to the treatment of matters referred to the monitoring offi...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c440-1 (Link to this contribution) These confessions are coming thick and fast at this stage of the Bill. Amendments Nos. 238ZE and 238...
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 694 c441-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness. It goes to show that, when we tabled these amendments, our brai...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c442 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238ZFA: 238ZFA: Clause 193, page 134, line 15, at end insert ““and shall do so...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c442-3 (Link to this contribution) The first amendment refers to the power in Clause 193 about the withdrawal of a reference. Clause 19...
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 694 c440 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238ZE: 238ZE: Clause 192, page 133, line 25, leave out paragraph (b) The nobl...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c432 (Link to this contribution) I am very happy to commit to writing to noble Lords before Report so we can tease out some of those ...
Baroness Hanham | 694 c432 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the indication that an amendment will be introduced, because it is clear that the ...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c431-2 (Link to this contribution) That is an important contextual point for the amendments that we are discussing. We had the beginnin...
Lord Bruce-Lockhart | 694 c431 (Link to this contribution) I was not talking about Kent County Council either; I was talking about my experience across the cou...
Lord Greaves | 694 c434 (Link to this contribution) My concern with this group of amendments is concentrated on the same issues as those raised by my no...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c433-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238ZB: 238ZB: Clause 186, page 129, leave out lines 11 to 14 The noble Barone...
Lord Greaves | 694 c433 (Link to this contribution) had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 238ZAA: 238ZAA: Clause 185, page 125, line...
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 694 c432-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for thinking so carefully about the points that we have raised in this...
Lord Bruce-Lockhart | 694 c430 (Link to this contribution) I am troubled by this clause of the Bill. I support the amendment and what my noble friend Lady Hanh...
Lord Greaves | 694 c430 (Link to this contribution) I agree. I was not suggesting that there is a huge diversity in standards of probity but that there ...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c435 (Link to this contribution) This may well be an area where guidance from the Standards Board itself will be very important. I sh...
Baroness Hanham | 694 c435 (Link to this contribution) The clause is extremely concerning. This is a double jeopardy situation where someone makes an alleg...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c435 (Link to this contribution) I understand that the noble Baroness is not correct in her interpretation, but I cannot give her a f...
Baroness Hanham | 694 c435 (Link to this contribution) I do not see how the Standards Board can give guidance on a point in legislation when we have this c...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c436 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that is logical. The point about having local committees is that they will do the sif...
Lord Greaves | 694 c435 (Link to this contribution) This is a related point; perhaps the noble Baroness can write to us on this as well. If there is to ...
Lord Greaves | 694 c436 (Link to this contribution) That may be the process by which it happens, but that sifting process will determine whether it is a...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c434-5 (Link to this contribution) I do not think the noble Lord has read it wrongly. I shall set out the main purpose of the clause an...
Lord Greaves | 694 c435 (Link to this contribution) Am I not right in thinking that it is an appeal by the complainant and not by the person complained ...
Baroness Andrews | 694 c435 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is quite right; that does not meet his point. I am clutching at straws.
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c471 (Link to this contribution) The only response to the Minister is ““I surrender””. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendm...
Lord Hanningfield | 694 c457-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for that answer. We agree that it is a welcome step forward, and we want ...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c473 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238GA: 238GA: Clause 216, page 151, line 13, leave out ““a particular entity, ...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c459 (Link to this contribution) I do not want it to be thought that I oppose the clause for the sake of opposing the proposition. Th...
Lord Hanningfield | 694 c460 (Link to this contribution) I do not really want to intervene again, but this goes back to the discussion we had before. Suppose...
Lord Hanningfield | 694 c453-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238ZS: 238ZS: Clause 206, page 143, line 37, at end insert ““and provided that...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c475 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 238KA: 238KA: Schedule 15, page 217, line 17, leave out ““are”” and insert ““i...
Baroness Hamwee | 694 c458 (Link to this contribution) I found that exchange extremely helpful. Last week, I asked the Local Government Association to give...

Subjects

Complaints
Bullying
Disclosure of information
Appeals
Crime
Audit
Accountancy
Councillors
Conduct
Convictions
Borrowing
Disqualification
Documents
Local government
Local government finance
Members
Staff
Private life
Standards
Wales
Waste disposal
Standards Board for England
Valuation Tribunal Service
Valuation Tribunal for England
Monitoring officers
Ethical standards officers

Legislation

Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill 2006-07

Contains statistics

Yes

Link

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