UK Parliament / Open data

Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill [HL]

Debate on bills on Monday, 5 March 2007, in the House of Commons, led by Vera Baird. The answering member was Oliver Heald.

Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Bill (HL). Second reading debate. Agreed to on question. Programme motion on proceedings in Committee, on Report, Third reading and any other proceedings. Agreed to on question. Queen's Recommendation signified. Money resolution agreed to on question.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

457 c1296-362

Session

2006-07

Proceeding contributions

Oliver Heald | 457 c1314 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend comes from a tradition in this place of believing that it is important to have full d...

Oliver Heald | 457 c1314 (Link to this contribution) I agree that the other place has done an excellent job on this Bill, and that it does an excellent j...

Show all contributions (146)

Vera Baird | 457 c1312-3 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend refers to an ACAS-negotiated agreement. It is simply a contract, so it has to be sued...

Rob Marris | 457 c1312 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend suddenly accelerated through part 7. I want to ask about clause 137, whic...

Derek Conway | 457 c1314 (Link to this contribution) Quite understandably, and as is his usual practice, my hon. Friend has set out his concerns in a rea...

Oliver Heald | 457 c1313 (Link to this contribution) The Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill may not be the raciest title to come before us this Sessi...

Vera Baird | 457 c1311-2 (Link to this contribution) I note my hon. Friend’s comments. My noble Friend Baroness Ashton has worked hard in the House of Lo...

Rob Marris | 457 c1312 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. and learned Friend give way?

Oliver Heald | 457 c1316 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman says, it was then not abolished. It took 250 amendments in the other place, a ...

Rob Marris | 457 c1316 (Link to this contribution) The post was not abolished.

Oliver Heald | 457 c1316 (Link to this contribution) But the amendment also states that other judges can be allowed to do the work. Why is that? Part 3 ...

Vera Baird | 457 c1316 (Link to this contribution) We appear to be patenting a whole new method of parliamentary debate. The Government accepted an am...

Oliver Heald | 457 c1315 (Link to this contribution) I know that the name ““adjudicator”” has been abolished in favour of ““judge”” in the immigration ju...

Vera Baird | 457 c1315 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to respond. It is intended that the usual form of address—““sir””, ““madam”” or whatever—...

Oliver Heald | 457 c1315 (Link to this contribution) I do not know how many would share the Minister’s blind confidence. On the user-friendliness of tri...

Vera Baird | 457 c1315 (Link to this contribution) Yes.

Oliver Heald | 457 c1314-5 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly my point, Madam Deputy Speaker. To return to the exciting measure before us, the Op...

Speaker | 457 c1314 (Link to this contribution) Order. There will be plenty of opportunities later this week for that debate to continue.

Vera Baird | 457 c1306 (Link to this contribution) It is hard to be specific. An affirmative resolution would be required to bring bailiffs within the ...

John Grogan | 457 c1306 (Link to this contribution) Independent regulation of bailiffs was suggested in the White Paper ““Effective Enforcement””, in 20...

Vera Baird | 457 c1306-8 (Link to this contribution) Reasonable force can be used to enter premises. Bailiffs are not entitled to use reasonable force ag...

Oliver Heald | 457 c1306 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. and learned Lady for giving way; she has been generous in accepting interv...

Lord Bellingham | 457 c1308 (Link to this contribution) Before the hon. and learned Lady goes into more detail about the SIA, may I ask her about the magist...

Vera Baird | 457 c1305 (Link to this contribution) I cannot say that there is a holding period, or that it would be practical to provide one. There wil...

Vera Baird | 457 c1305 (Link to this contribution) The reassurance that I can immediately offer is that the judge will have to be satisfied that the ac...

Brian Iddon | 457 c1305 (Link to this contribution) What safeguards will there be, either in the Bill or in the secondary legislation, to protect people...

Vera Baird | 457 c1305-6 (Link to this contribution) Yes. My hon. Friend set out very clearly the considerations we intend to include under a heading tha...

Edward O'Hara | 457 c1305 (Link to this contribution) To return to the issue of forced entry, I listened carefully to the conditions that a judge would co...

Mark Fisher | 457 c1311 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister accept that, although I understand and sympathise with the point that the museums ...

Vera Baird | 457 c1311 (Link to this contribution) Yes, that is my understanding, and our intention.

Lord Cormack | 457 c1311 (Link to this contribution) This part of the Bill has received a widespread welcome, particularly from directors of museums and ...

Vera Baird | 457 c1310-1 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has bought himself an opportunity to serve on the Committee. I will take advice on th...

Simon Hughes | 457 c1308 (Link to this contribution) May I ask the Minister the simple real-world question that she, I and others will have faced in surg...

Vera Baird | 457 c1308 (Link to this contribution) I am aware that there have been applications to see the full text, but the rationale for leaving out...

Rob Marris | 457 c1309-10 (Link to this contribution) I want to make two brief points. First, clause 90(1) is infelicitously worded. After the word, ““inf...

Vera Baird | 457 c1308-9 (Link to this contribution) The police must know the proper procedure. My hon. Friend has raised a powerful point. Chapter 2 o...

Rob Marris | 457 c1308 (Link to this contribution) I suggest that the police should be informed. There was a situation involving one of my constituents...

Vera Baird | 457 c1308 (Link to this contribution) Bailiffs must carry their authorisation with them, and they must display it on request either before...

Vera Baird | 457 c1303-4 (Link to this contribution) The simplifying code of procedure is in the Bill, so it will be available to be introduced on Royal ...

Oliver Heald | 457 c1304 (Link to this contribution) Would it not be better to wait for the full solution of regulation before introducing the powers, or...

Vera Baird | 457 c1304 (Link to this contribution) The powers should not, in my view, be used by anybody who is not a certificated bailiff; it would be...

Oliver Heald | 457 c1304 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. and learned Lady for that answer, but I was referring to the fuller system...

Vera Baird | 457 c1304 (Link to this contribution) We think that the county court judges doing the regulating are capable of ensuring that there is acc...

Lord Cormack | 457 c1304 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. and learned Lady has made plain, she does not think that any bailiff who is not certific...

Vera Baird | 457 c1304 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman’s point ought to be considered seriously; I accept that.

Vera Baird | 457 c1304 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the hon. Gentleman, and I have an answer to his earlier question, too.

Simon Hughes | 457 c1304-5 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. and learned Lady will know, we are discussing the most controversial part of the Bill, a...

Derek Conway | 457 c1301-2 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Lady has been very generous, as she always is on these occasions. She refers to...

Vera Baird | 457 c1302 (Link to this contribution) I think that the topic has moved on from the one that was raised by the hon. Member for Twickenham (...

Vera Baird | 457 c1301 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right that High Court enforcement officers already have the power to use force...

Brooks Newmark | 457 c1303 (Link to this contribution) May I just clarify what I said?

Vera Baird | 457 c1303 (Link to this contribution) Of course.

Brooks Newmark | 457 c1303 (Link to this contribution) My biggest concern is not what will happen to big companies that are forced to deal with the contrac...

Vera Baird | 457 c1303 (Link to this contribution) It is a pretty sweeping statement to say that it is the most vulnerable people in society who are co...

James Brokenshire | 457 c1303 (Link to this contribution) As the Minister will be aware, one of the concerns of Citizens Advice is the fact that disreputable ...

Brooks Newmark | 457 c1303 (Link to this contribution) My concern is with the most vulnerable people in society; I was not saying that the legislation deal...

Vera Baird | 457 c1303 (Link to this contribution) All right. I am happy to share the hon. Gentleman’s concern for the most vulnerable in society; ther...

Rob Marris | 457 c1299-300 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister reinforce what she just said? The jurisdiction that obtains in England and Wales i...

Vera Baird | 457 c1300 (Link to this contribution) I can give my hon. Friend that assurance entirely. It is a very odd notion that widening the pool wi...

Philip Davies | 457 c1300 (Link to this contribution) Many people have the concern that this is not widening the pool in order to gain a higher calibre of...

Vera Baird | 457 c1300 (Link to this contribution) I am sure about the magistrate and the commercial lawyer, but I am less sure about the academic who ...

Brian Iddon | 457 c1301 (Link to this contribution) My office has had several run-ins with bailiffs and I hope that my hon. and learned Friend can provi...

Vera Baird | 457 c1301 (Link to this contribution) I know of even worse problems with bailiffs than that. Sometimes it is not just about them turning u...

Vera Baird | 457 c1300 (Link to this contribution) I cannot think that the hon. Gentleman has listened to what I just said. I said that selection will ...

Philip Davies | 457 c1300 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, so why gerrymander the rules?

Vera Baird | 457 c1300 (Link to this contribution) One widens the pool in order to extend the diverse range of people who are eligible and one then cho...

Simon Hughes | 457 c1300 (Link to this contribution) If a magistrate obtains a legal qualification or was previously legally qualified, or if an academic...

Tobias Ellwood | 457 c1297 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister feel that there is sufficient scope for us to discuss the Bill now? Is not too muc...

Vera Baird | 457 c1296-7 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. I hope that hon. Members in all parts of th...

Vera Baird | 457 c1297 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that there will be much discussion about that in Committee. The need for flexibility makes...

Joan Walley | 457 c1298 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful. On employment tribunals, when the last changes were made, there was quite a lot of co...

Vera Baird | 457 c1298-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for mentioning that beforehand, because it enables me to confirm tha...

Joan Walley | 457 c1298 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way?

Vera Baird | 457 c1298 (Link to this contribution) Yes, but after that, I intend to make a bit of progress.

Jim Cunningham | 457 c1297 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister know that a number of solicitors no longer give advice to asylum seekers, and does...

Vera Baird | 457 c1298 (Link to this contribution) That is a big question. I am sure that my hon. Friend knows that there has been an attempt to ensure...

Simon Hughes | 457 c1297 (Link to this contribution) The Minister and I have had other conversations about legal aid, and I want to ask her about it in t...

Vera Baird | 457 c1297 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is certainly correct regarding his second point. There are no plans to incorporat...

Nick Ainger | 457 c1357 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, but I emphasise that a bailiff will not only have to presen...

Edward O'Hara | 457 c1357 (Link to this contribution) I said earlier that if the regulations were not included in the Bill, they would presumably be passe...

Nick Ainger | 457 c1358 (Link to this contribution) That is true, but it will be done through the affirmative order process. I accept my hon. Friend’s p...

Lord Bellingham | 457 c1350-6 (Link to this contribution) I begin by declaring an interest as a qualified barrister. During my time at the Bar, I appeared bef...

Nick Ainger | 457 c1356-7 (Link to this contribution) I am getting indications that it could be as many as 20. They would be justices with a particular ex...

Simon Hughes | 457 c1357 (Link to this contribution) I would like to reinforce the point about how easy it is for someone who looks like an official to a...

Lord Benyon | 457 c1343 (Link to this contribution) Some of those organisations are undoubtedly committing real villainy—in some cases, within the law. ...

James Brokenshire | 457 c1343-6 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Mr. Benyon). I echo his comments i...

Brooks Newmark | 457 c1346-50 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch (James Brokenshire), who covered p...

Mark Fisher | 457 c1330-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the opportunity to follow the hon. Member for North Southwark and Bermondsey (Simo...

Lord Benyon | 457 c1340-2 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Derek Conway),...

Brooks Newmark | 457 c1342 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the real problem lies not just in advertisements for loans in respect...

Oliver Heald | 457 c1339 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend will appreciate that, at this stage, we are considering the general principle of the ...

Derek Conway | 457 c1339 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, who has spent hundreds of hours in Committee going through legislation, issues an ap...

Lord Cormack | 457 c1334-6 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure, as always, to follow the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mark Fisher), wh...

Derek Conway | 457 c1336-9 (Link to this contribution) It is a privilege to follow my hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack),...

Lord Cormack | 457 c1332 (Link to this contribution) Of course that would not be satisfactory, but if the exhibition ends, the work remains in this count...

Mark Fisher | 457 c1332-4 (Link to this contribution) These matters need to be explored in Committee and worked out. I accept that the intentions of other...

Lord Bellingham | 457 c1332 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman clarify one point? He said that he wanted amendments in Committee to prevent...

Mark Fisher | 457 c1332 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. Once immunity, and therefore protection from a suit—brought by somebody who believed tha...

Oliver Heald | 457 c1360 (Link to this contribution) The Minister might also wish to tell us about the position of the pet dog and leaving a certain amou...

Simon Hughes | 457 c1359 (Link to this contribution) Of course the register is available. The point that I made was that people need somewhere locally wh...

Nick Ainger | 457 c1359-60 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I appreciate that, and although it is important that we have a record of the judgments—this is ...

Edward O'Hara | 457 c1358-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for that, and I applaud all of it. My concern continues to be that the other ...

Nick Ainger | 457 c1359 (Link to this contribution) Yes, and I am sure that that issue will have to be considered. Whether there is illness and the othe...

Lord Bellingham | 457 c1358 (Link to this contribution) I am obviously concerned about a number of points that relate to the Security Industry Authority, bu...

Nick Ainger | 457 c1358 (Link to this contribution) The current proposal is that the authority would regulate not Crown agents, but those who work for l...

Edward O'Hara | 457 c1318-20 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for, and congratulate her on, bringing to the House this much-needed Bill, whic...

Lord Bellingham | 457 c1320 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has told us about a very moving case, but does he agree that there is an argument...

Edward O'Hara | 457 c1320 (Link to this contribution) There is a case for that, but it needs to be examined carefully in Committee. I do not doubt for a ...

Oliver Heald | 457 c1320 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it would be more sensible to leave implementation of the extra po...

Edward O'Hara | 457 c1322 (Link to this contribution) The intermediate step is missing. Certificates may be issued and they may not be reissued in the lig...

Vera Baird | 457 c1322 (Link to this contribution) I just wanted to take up the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Leicestershire...

Lord Cormack | 457 c1323 (Link to this contribution) I do not welcome it.

Simon Hughes | 457 c1322-3 (Link to this contribution) I am proud to represent a part of London where Charles Dickens lived when he was young and where his...

Edward O'Hara | 457 c1320 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, and I was just coming to that point. Unfortunately...

Edward O'Hara | 457 c1321-2 (Link to this contribution) That is central to my point. Only 2 per cent. of Knowsley’s council tax is collected in that way, an...

David Leslie Taylor | 457 c1320-1 (Link to this contribution) It is true that a sizeable minority of bailiffs and firms routinely threaten, harass, intimidate, li...

Oliver Heald | 457 c1317-8 (Link to this contribution) I would welcome that. My hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack) has su...

Simon Hughes | 457 c1317 (Link to this contribution) Am I right in inferring that the hon. Gentleman would be happy to work with colleagues on the Govern...

Oliver Heald | 457 c1317 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman and, in a way, the consultation appears to be a response to the sort...

David Leslie Taylor | 457 c1316-7 (Link to this contribution) I raised the question of the regulation of bailiffs just before Christmas, and received a somewhat u...

Oliver Heald | 457 c1316 (Link to this contribution) I think the hon. Gentleman is describing as consultation what was in fact a forced U-turn, when the ...

Rob Marris | 457 c1316 (Link to this contribution) I may share the hon. Gentleman’s reservations about some consultations, but the example he has just ...

Simon Hughes | 457 c1327 (Link to this contribution) I will give way one more time, but then I want to finish.

James Brokenshire | 457 c1327 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Is he aware that the Government have, in part, accepted t...

Simon Hughes | 457 c1327 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I am aware of that, and it is welcome. I think that the logic should be followed through, compl...

Vera Baird | 457 c1327 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I do not have a problem with considering whether the regulation...

Simon Hughes | 457 c1327 (Link to this contribution) Of course I will give way to the Minister.

Simon Hughes | 457 c1327-8 (Link to this contribution) I welcome what the Minister says. I have a proposal on a subject that I asked the Minister about. Th...

Simon Hughes | 457 c1328-30 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. One of the issues is that the system was already confusing. We must make sure that at th...

Vera Baird | 457 c1328 (Link to this contribution) I would have thought that the ideal way forward was what pretty well happens now. The bailiff’s firs...

Simon Hughes | 457 c1324 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend: the presumption should be that there should not be law...

Lord Beith | 457 c1324 (Link to this contribution) Although I agree with my hon. Friend that there are circumstances where legal aid in tribunals is ur...

Simon Hughes | 457 c1325 (Link to this contribution) I understand, and although two of us in this three-way exchange are lawyers, my right hon. Friend th...

Simon Hughes | 457 c1324-5 (Link to this contribution) Indeed it is. The hon. Gentleman’s colleague in the other place was supported by colleagues on our B...

Oliver Heald | 457 c1324 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman mentioned mediation. The Goodlad amendment, which went through in the other place...

Simon Hughes | 457 c1327 (Link to this contribution) None of us argues that every bailiff firm does bad work or does not do its job responsibly; there ar...

Derek Conway | 457 c1327 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an important point that is echoed by bailiffs. They are concerned that some...

Simon Hughes | 457 c1326-7 (Link to this contribution) I take the view, as I think the hon. Gentleman does, that judicial review should be carried out by H...

Oliver Heald | 457 c1325 (Link to this contribution) On the point about judicial review in the tribunal, if the hon. Gentleman looks at clause 18(8), he ...

Vera Baird | 457 c1325 (Link to this contribution) There was originally a clause about mediation in the Bill, but we took it out because we thought tha...

Vincent Cable | 457 c1301 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister make it clear that, during the Bill’s progress, she intends to heed the advice of ...

Oliver Heald | 457 c1356 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister give us any idea of how many judges who are not High Court judges are thought likel...

Nick Ainger | 457 c1360-1 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will raise that point in Committee. I will move on to part 5, to ...

Lord Cormack | 457 c1314 (Link to this contribution) As one who is not making a bid to be on the Committee, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he would be ...

Vera Baird | 457 c1312 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has spoiled my peroration.

Simon Hughes | 457 c1323-4 (Link to this contribution) I know that the hon. Gentleman does not, but the Liberal Democrats in both Houses have consistently ...

Subjects

Consumers

Administration of justice

Bankruptcy

Cultural heritage

Credit

Debt collection

Fees and charges

Enforcement

Legal aid scheme

Eligibility

Judiciary

Exemptions

Harassment

Powers of entry

Public appointments

Museums and galleries

Property

Proof of identity

Tribunals

Training

Regulation

Sequestration of assets

Security Industry Authority

Legislation

Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill (HL) 2006-07

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