UK Parliament / Open data

Government of Wales Bill

Debate on bills and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Monday, 30 January 2006, in the House of Commons.
Government of Wales Bill. Committee stage third day. Clauses 103-115 agreed to. Clauses 1-91 agreed to, clause 83 as amended. Clauses 116-165 agreed to, clauses 124,125,127,130,132,134,135 and 161 as amended. Schedule 7 agreed to. Schedules 1-4 agreed to, schedule 3 as amended. Schedules 8-12 agreed to, schedules 10-12 as amended. New clauses considered. Bill reported with amendments (Bill 121 2005-06)

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

442 c41-138, (corrigendum) 298;442 c578 

Session

2005-06

Department

Wales Office

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Related items

Government of Wales Bill . Explanatory Notes Bill 100-EN also published.
Thursday, 8 December 2005
Bills
House of Commons
Corrections
Thursday, 2 February 2006
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Commons
Better governance for Wales. Welsh Affairs Select Committee first report with proceedings, evidence (HC 551 i-iv not printed separately) and appendices.
Tuesday, 29 November 2005
Parliamentary committees
House of Commons
Better governance for Wales. Welsh Affairs Select committee third special report - government response to the Committee's first report of session 2005/06 (HC 551).
Thursday, 19 January 2006
Parliamentary committees
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Lembit Opik | 442 c44 (Link to this contribution) I am listening to the debate with great interest, although I suggest that we might be pre-empting a ...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 442 c44 (Link to this contribution) I will have a look at the amendment when it comes up, but we are dealing with something totally diff...

Show all contributions (363)
Mark Tami | 442 c42 (Link to this contribution) I have had the same experience as my right hon. Friend. People at the count have asked me how many c...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 442 c42 (Link to this contribution) There is complete confusion among the electors of south Wales, north Wales and middle Wales about th...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 442 c43-4 (Link to this contribution) Those Members did not receive such postbags because only one of them was elected to the Assembly und...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c43 (Link to this contribution) I must admit that the d’Hondt system is enough to confuse anybody; I am not necessarily supporting a...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 442 c43 (Link to this contribution) I suppose that I am one of the few people in the world who does because, as my hon. Friend knows, th...
Wayne David | 442 c43 (Link to this contribution) Obviously, democracy depends upon understanding, so can my right hon. Friend tell us what percentage...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 442 c43 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Lady came to Wales and asked people—whether in Pontypool market, Splott market or anywhe...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c43 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman is making the point that there is widespread and large co...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 442 c42-3 (Link to this contribution) I disagree with the Electoral Commission, and I do so on the basis that I have been elected to vario...
Hywel Williams | 442 c42 (Link to this contribution) How does the right hon. Gentleman reconcile the statement that he has just made with the evidence pr...
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c44 (Link to this contribution) I have been to Splott market, as a matter of fact, because my daughter lived in Splott until very re...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c62 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 160, in clause 108, page 59, line 21, at en...
Adam Price | 442 c62 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 159, in clause 108, page 59, line 18, after ‘Parliament’, insert ‘or
Adam Price | 442 c62-3 (Link to this contribution) The amendments refer once again to the position of the House of Lords in relation to proposals in th...
Lord Hain | 442 c61 (Link to this contribution) As I hope Hansard will show, I was careful to say that the Assembly passed a motion to that effect, ...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c61 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the fact that the Secretary of State chose his words carefully, because I was led to be...
Lord Hain | 442 c61-2 (Link to this contribution) There has been no specific request for legislation. The motion passed by the Assembly was transmitte...
Hywel Williams | 442 c62 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State may say that there is a colourful miscellany of requests and a huge variety o...
Chris Ruane | 442 c61 (Link to this contribution) It sounds like something the Liberal Democrats would do.
Lord Hain | 442 c61 (Link to this contribution) I shall not go there. All those matters may have points in their favour, but they must be considere...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c61 (Link to this contribution) Did the Secretary of State say that there has never been a request from the Welsh Assembly to look a...
Lord Hain | 442 c60-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the discipline that Members have shown in general in this debate. I respect the p...
Adam Price | 442 c59-60 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman’s point is well made in the context of recent events—it would be inappropriate to...
David TC Davies | 442 c59 (Link to this contribution) I understand the principle behind the hon. Gentleman’s argument, but given the way in which the Wels...
Adam Price | 442 c59 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for not being here for the beginning of the debate, but I had a meeting with the Secreta...
Dominic Grieve | 442 c59 (Link to this contribution) I have some sympathy with the amendment on hunting with dogs. The difficulty, which we must face up ...
Roger Williams | 442 c58 (Link to this contribution) : I, too, wish to speak about hunting with dogs. The points have been well made by the hon. Member f...
David TC Davies | 442 c58 (Link to this contribution) : I have some sympathy with the amendment. I have made it fairly clear that I do not in general favo...
Hywel Williams | 442 c57 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 33 refers to hunting with dogs, which has been the subject of much controversy in this...
Nick Ainger | 442 c64-5 (Link to this contribution) May I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Gale? The hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) is right to...
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c64 (Link to this contribution) It probably does—the Welsh were a very scholarly people and would have taken in a few useful words f...
Adam Price | 442 c63 (Link to this contribution) Yet again, I am disappointed, but hardly surprised and certainly not shocked by the Secretary of Sta...
Dominic Grieve | 442 c63 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 192, page 60, line 15, leave out subsection (2).
Lord Hain | 442 c63 (Link to this contribution) We have covered this ground in some detail earlier in our proceedings, but I congratulate the hon. M...
Dominic Grieve | 442 c63 (Link to this contribution) : I am pleased to hear the Secretary of State say that. I heartily agree with him, although I am bou...
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c64 (Link to this contribution) : I rise very briefly to support amendment No. 193, as I did last week in support of a similar amend...
Dominic Grieve | 442 c64 (Link to this contribution) I can claim no expertise in Welsh, but my recollection is that Welsh includes a number of Latin word...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c63 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 193, page 60, line 29, leave out from ‘Wels...
Dominic Grieve | 442 c63-4 (Link to this contribution) We return to a subject that we touched on when we considered part 3. I am mindful of the fact that d...
Lord Hain | 442 c77 (Link to this contribution) That takes us to list Members as opposed to constituency Members, who represent constituencies of a ...
Lembit Opik | 442 c77 (Link to this contribution) Is the Secretary of State speaking in a personal capacity or on behalf of the Government in opposing...
Lembit Opik | 442 c77 (Link to this contribution) The point is important in terms of understanding the Government’s position: is the Secretary of Stat...
Lord Hain | 442 c77-8 (Link to this contribution) I have not said that. In Wales—I am not aware of a difference elsewhere in the United Kingdom—the re...
Jenny Willott | 442 c78 (Link to this contribution) I am not satisfied by the Secretary of State’s response. For the Liberal Democrats, this is a matter...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c82 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 196, page 2, line 35, leave out ‘one month’ and insert ‘three months’.
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c82 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 197, in clause 4, page 2, line 36, leave ou...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c82 (Link to this contribution) The amendments need not take up the Committee’s time. I am sure that the Secretary of State apprecia...
Lord Hain | 442 c82 (Link to this contribution) I greatly appreciate the way in which the hon. Lady moved the amendment. She made some important poi...
Hywel Williams | 442 c83 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 8, page 2, line 40, leave out ‘seven’ and insert ‘twenty-one’.
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c83 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful but I hope that the Secretary of State understands that, simply because we are re...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c82-3 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State has considered his response to the amendments, which I shall withdraw. Howeve...
Lord Hain | 442 c83-4 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman said, the amendments would allow three weeks before the Assembly first had to ...
Hywel Williams | 442 c84 (Link to this contribution) I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c83 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 9, in clause 5, page 3, line 34, leave out ...
Hywel Williams | 442 c83 (Link to this contribution) The amendments are probing and they follow representations from Members of the National Assembly. Th...
Lembit Opik | 442 c84 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 69, page 3, line 14, leave out from ‘the’ to end of line 15 and insert
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c84 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 70, in clause 5, page 3, line 25, leave out...
Lembit Opik | 442 c85 (Link to this contribution) I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s disagreement with amendment No. 70. We simply have a differe...
Lord Hain | 442 c84-5 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 69 would remove the requirement on the Secretary of State to consult Welsh Ministers o...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c86 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 11, in clause 7, page 4, li...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c85 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 50, in clause 7, page 4, line 32, leave out subsections (5) and (6) and ...
Lembit Opik | 442 c84 (Link to this contribution) I presume that the amendments are uncontentious and that the Government will accept them. The righ...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c87 (Link to this contribution) These voting systems are really coming out of the woodwork now. It is only when we start to list the...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c86-7 (Link to this contribution) We now come to one of the meatier sections of the Bill, as I am sure the Secretary of State apprecia...
Alex Salmond | 442 c87 (Link to this contribution) The single transferable vote system is also about to be used for the Scottish local elections.
Chris Bryant | 442 c87 (Link to this contribution) I hate to add to the hon. Lady’s list, but there is yet another example. Single transferable voting ...
Peter Bone | 442 c90 (Link to this contribution) Is not the heart of the problem the fact that there are two systems—a list system and a constituency...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c89-90 (Link to this contribution) I am willing to give way, but before I do so I must point out that that goes to show that voters are...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c87-9 (Link to this contribution) I do like a man who has learned to say that he is sorry. Obviously, the hon. Gentleman is one of tho...
Mark Tami | 442 c87 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Lady acknowledge that we are accepting that, so far as this system is concerned, we ha...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c87 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to pre-empt any debate that we might have on these issues later, but the hon. Gentlema...
Jim Devine | 442 c87 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady will be aware of Brian Monteith, a member of her party in Scotland, who stood in a con...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c90 (Link to this contribution) I leave my hon. Friend’s intervention to stand alone—perhaps the Secretary of State will heed his wa...
Nick Ainger | 442 c68 (Link to this contribution) We will not go down that route.
David TC Davies | 442 c68-9 (Link to this contribution) : I must remind the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams) that Owain Glyndwr, of whom I am a d...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c68 (Link to this contribution) I will be grateful if the Minister will write to me, but it would be nice to have his comments on re...
Nick Ainger | 442 c68 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Lady on her work. I do not think that I will be able to answer all her quest...
Dominic Grieve | 442 c68 (Link to this contribution) I think that the Minister is likely to find that there were previous Welsh seals. Llewellyn the Grea...
Nick Ainger | 442 c68 (Link to this contribution) I will certainly consider that. The hon. Lady asks whether the seal will be the first Welsh seal. W...
Hywel Williams | 442 c68 (Link to this contribution) May I draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that Owain Glyndwr had a seal, which was appen...
Nick Ainger | 442 c68 (Link to this contribution) My research will reveal what the situation is.
Hywel Williams | 442 c72 (Link to this contribution) First, I am reluctant to intrude—
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 442 c72 (Link to this contribution) Because we are now debating the Government of Wales Bill; that is why we are considering this partic...
Jenny Willott | 442 c70 (Link to this contribution) There are two points behind our amendments in the group, both of which are crucial to the future cap...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c69-70 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 1, in page 1, leave out line...
Jenny Willott | 442 c69 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 67, in page 1, line 7, leave out subsection (2) and insert—
Nick Ainger | 442 c69 (Link to this contribution) I will not respond to the hon. Gentleman because we need to make progress. I shall write to the hon...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 442 c71-2 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to speak to the group of amendments, but given the views of the Liberal Democrats...
Jenny Willott | 442 c70-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I am referring to Committees rather than the sittings of the...
David TC Davies | 442 c70 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Lady also agree that one does not have to be Carol Vorderman to work out that if the A...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c72 (Link to this contribution) Order. There seems to be some misunderstanding. Is the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) go...
Jenny Willott | 442 c74 (Link to this contribution) I would like to put on the record the fact that the incident to which the right hon. Gentleman refer...
Hywel Williams | 442 c73 (Link to this contribution) The system proposed in our amendment would retain a regional element, in that there would be 16 Memb...
Lord Hain | 442 c74 (Link to this contribution) First, may I congratulate the hon. Member for Cardiff, Central (Jenny Willott) on the way in which s...
David Mundell | 442 c73-4 (Link to this contribution) The last time I stood up to oppose the introduction of a system of single transferable votes, it was...
Roger Williams | 442 c72-3 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Sir Michael. We misunderstood the right hon. Gentleman’s intentions and thought he had fi...
Hywel Williams | 442 c73 (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to intervene in this private spat between the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats, but...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 442 c73 (Link to this contribution) I did not like that either—but that is another issue. I respect the hon. Member for Brecon and Radno...
Lord Hain | 442 c74-5 (Link to this contribution) In that case, I grovellingly withdraw my outrageous accusation. I very much agree with the excellen...
Hywel Williams | 442 c75 (Link to this contribution) Is the Secretary of State confident that there will be sufficient Members to staff the Committees, g...
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c77 (Link to this contribution) Under the status quo, the North Wales is exactly as the right hon. Gentleman describes. At the first...
Lord Hain | 442 c76-7 (Link to this contribution) No, I should like to make progress in dealing with matters raised by hon. Members who have been pres...
Alex Salmond | 442 c76 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Hain | 442 c76 (Link to this contribution) That is not certain at all. In fact, if there was an expansion of the list system it is quite possib...
David TC Davies | 442 c76 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman said that a radical rethink of the electoral system would be required if th...
Lord Hain | 442 c76 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right—that would be the case. For the reasons that I explained at the conferen...
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c75-6 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman may recall the Cardiff conference at which these matters were discussed. I ...
Lord Hain | 442 c75 (Link to this contribution) The Bill provides for a dozen Ministers—a combination of full Ministers and Deputy Ministers—which l...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c65 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 148, page 61, line 41, leav...
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c65-6 (Link to this contribution) We had a full if not lengthy debate on these issues last week. In my view, clause 113 gives the Secr...
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c66 (Link to this contribution) The Minister shakes his head, but one of us is right. I am not saying that I must be right but if I ...
Dominic Grieve | 442 c65 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for his response. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c65 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 45, page 61, line 38, leave out paragraph (a).
Nick Ainger | 442 c66-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is quite right. We debated this issue when we discussed very similar amendments t...
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c67 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that reassurance and for the manner in which the Minister has responded. I am plea...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c67-8 (Link to this contribution) This clause is about the Welsh Seal and the Letters Patent and I did not want it to pass by complete...
Nick Ainger | 442 c68 (Link to this contribution) That was an interesting little speech. May I congratulate the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c48-9 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to delay the Committee and shall make a couple of brief points. I have some sympathy ...
Dai Havard | 442 c49 (Link to this contribution) It is shame that we do not have time to continue to explore the Opposition’s arguments. On Second R...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c49 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way, because I have intervened enough. I would have been more inclined to support t...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c51-2 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 13, in clause 35, page 21, l...
Hywel Williams | 442 c52 (Link to this contribution) I begin with amendment No. 13, which would delete the words"““so far as is both appropriate in the c...
Lembit Opik | 442 c49-50 (Link to this contribution) I understand that there are some arguments in favour of this change, but we have not heard them toni...
Lord Hain | 442 c50-1 (Link to this contribution) I pay tribute to the measured way in which the Committee has approached the scrutiny of the Bill. Th...
Ian Lucas | 442 c51 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for my right hon. Friend’s measured response, which I contrast with the rather gracele...
Hywel Williams | 442 c51 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 124, in clause 104, page 57, line 38, at end add—
Hywel Williams | 442 c52 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) for making the point that t...
David TC Davies | 442 c52 (Link to this contribution) On a historical point, there was no Wales-wide Government prior to the Acts of Union. There were var...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c56-7 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 149, page 116, leave out li...
Hywel Williams | 442 c56 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 33, page 115, leave out line 17.
Lord Hain | 442 c55-6 (Link to this contribution) We all support, on a cross-party basis, the increasing progress made in relation to the Welsh langua...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c44 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman’s comments are very wide of the amendment.
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 442 c44-5 (Link to this contribution) As tempted as I am to comment on the hon. Gentleman’s points, I shall leave that for another debate....
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c45 (Link to this contribution) Does it follow that the right hon. Gentleman will support our amendments to the provisions in clause...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 442 c45 (Link to this contribution) I assume that the hon. Lady is referring to the proposed changes regarding dual candidacy. One of th...
Lembit Opik | 442 c46 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for being out of order before, Mrs. Heal, but given the nature of the hon. Gentleman’s a...
Albert Owen | 442 c46 (Link to this contribution) You said that the hon. Gentleman was wide of the mark when he first asked that question, Mrs. Heal, ...
Ian Lucas | 442 c46 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend aware that at the most recent Assembly elections in north Wales, the Liberal Democ...
Albert Owen | 442 c47 (Link to this contribution) I was coming to my preference, but I am against the d’Hondt system, because it is confusing and peop...
Hywel Williams | 442 c47 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman arguing against proportionality as expressed in the d’Hondt system, or against...
Albert Owen | 442 c46-7 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, who has raised this matter before, is right. The inconsistency in the Liberal Democr...
Albert Owen | 442 c47 (Link to this contribution) I accept your guidance, Mrs. Heal, but I am referring to the amendment, which talks about changing t...
Roger Williams | 442 c47 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is rightly talking about consultation on the powers, the method of election and t...
Lembit Opik | 442 c47 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mrs. Heal. I do not wish to interrupt the hon. Gentleman’s argument, but I am d...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c47 (Link to this contribution) I thought I made it clear that hon. Members must confine their remarks to the amendment under discus...
Albert Owen | 442 c48 (Link to this contribution) Nothing has been thrown away. I repeat that we had a general election in which the Conservative part...
Albert Owen | 442 c47-8 (Link to this contribution) I certainly give greater weight to the general election that has just taken place. The manifesto of ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c48 (Link to this contribution) As I recall, the Welsh Labour manifesto did not say that the party would gerrymander the voting syst...
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c123 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Michael. The Secretary of State has restated the matter of Leanne Wood. As ...
Alex Salmond | 442 c121 (Link to this contribution) Well, why on earth did the late Donald Dewar put himself at the top of the Glasgow list? [Interrupti...
Jim Devine | 442 c121 (Link to this contribution) : I know that the hon. Gentleman’s party was not part of the convention, because it stayed out of th...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c121 (Link to this contribution) Order. Such matters may be safely left to the Chair. It would greatly help the hon. Gentleman’s cont...
Wayne David | 442 c121 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Michael. This is an amendment to the Government of Wales Bill and it has no...
Lord Hain | 442 c122 (Link to this contribution) A number of Members have described the Committee stages of the Bill as boring. It has been anything ...
Alex Salmond | 442 c121-2 (Link to this contribution) Thank you very much, Sir Michael. I was about to point out that among the casualties of this ridicul...
Lord Hain | 442 c122-3 (Link to this contribution) No, I have only a limited amount of time to respond to the debate, so I need to answer the points th...
Dominic Grieve | 442 c122 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Alex Salmond | 442 c121 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Lady had been paying attention to the debate, she would have heard the reason. The Labou...
Wayne David | 442 c126 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady can have a copy immediately. It is in the British Library and the National Library of ...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c126 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman, so that he can answer the questions that he failed to answer...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c125-6 (Link to this contribution) Rarely have I heard such a load of rubbish from a Secretary of State. No wonder he did not take very...
Alex Salmond | 442 c126 (Link to this contribution) I will be brief because I do not want to interrupt this. When the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Da...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c126 (Link to this contribution) There we have it—an entirely independent report was paid for by Labour Members.
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c123 (Link to this contribution) That is not a matter for the occupant of the Chair at this point.
Lord Hain | 442 c124-5 (Link to this contribution) I have limited time, and I need to make progress so that the Opposition have an opportunity to reply...
Wayne David | 442 c127 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Michael. Serious accusations are being made on the Floor of the House. I wa...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c127 (Link to this contribution) I will try to be helpful to the Chair, but I think that the intervention made by the hon. Member for...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c127 (Link to this contribution) Order. That is not a matter for the Chair; it is more a matter for debate.
Adam Price | 442 c126-7 (Link to this contribution) Does not the hon. Lady find it absolutely astonishing that although we have heard repeated accusatio...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c126 (Link to this contribution) I think that we have established that we are talking about a Labour party report that was commission...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c127 (Link to this contribution) Order. It would be helpful if the hon. Lady would return more directly to the amendment.
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c126 (Link to this contribution) I will take an intervention from the hon. Member for Caerphilly if he would like to answer that ques...
Wayne David | 442 c126 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. I am more than happy to give transparency to hon. Members. The matter has been cleared b...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c138 (Link to this contribution) I hope that it is not connected to the point of order that I have just dealt with.
Lord Hain | 442 c138 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Michael.
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c138 (Link to this contribution) That is not a matter for the Chair at this juncture. The House has already decided those matters. Th...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c128 (Link to this contribution) In that case, the Select Committee evidence from 31 October 2005 must be incorrect. I expect that th...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c128 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State wants me to give way—and I am sure that he has discussed the subject with the...
Lord Hain | 442 c128 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is making an important point, so just for the record, may I say that I have discussed ...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c127-8 (Link to this contribution) Methinks the hon. Gentleman doth protest too much, Sir Michael, but it will be interesting to find o...
Wayne David | 442 c110 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the hon. Lady has recognised that the Labour party has set an excellent example, but ...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c110 (Link to this contribution) I apologise unreservedly to the hon. Gentleman. I was not trying to be ungracious; I was trying to b...
Wayne David | 442 c111 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not realise that the systems are profoundly different? If one argues for con...
Alex Salmond | 442 c110-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Devine) was anxious to intervene and disagree with the hon. Ge...
Wayne David | 442 c110 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is correct. The provision is not about enhancing the position of a single party...
Wayne David | 442 c110 (Link to this contribution) May I point out that I am more gracious in giving way to the hon. Lady than she was to me?
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c112 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman has commissioned a piece of research. I would like to know ho...
Wayne David | 442 c112 (Link to this contribution) That was an interesting intervention. The hon. Gentleman referred to the chosen people as if some ha...
Roger Williams | 442 c112 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Wayne David | 442 c112 (Link to this contribution) It is unfortunate that the hon. Lady is so cynical about what ordinary people in Wales have to say. ...
Dominic Grieve | 442 c112 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows that I believe in first past the post and I have no doubt that he is right ...
Wayne David | 442 c113 (Link to this contribution) The system for electing the Welsh Assembly is primarily first past the post. It produces some propor...
Wayne David | 442 c112-3 (Link to this contribution) No, I simply want to tell hon. Members what ordinary people are saying on the streets, in the chapel...
David Jones | 442 c113 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman repeats the point that he made last week about losers becoming winners. Has he no...
Wayne David | 442 c113 (Link to this contribution) No. [Hon. Members: ““Give way!””] No, I have taken plenty of interventions.
Chris Bryant | 442 c113 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend accept that the other parties oppose the change because they are worried about g...
Wayne David | 442 c113 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. That was an objective observation of the chattering classes’ concerns. They are worried ...
David TC Davies | 442 c113-4 (Link to this contribution) May I declare an interest as a Member of the Welsh Assembly? I have no interest in changing the voti...
Mark Tami | 442 c114 (Link to this contribution) If we take the hon. Gentleman’s argument at face value, and accept that no one brings any work to th...
David TC Davies | 442 c114-5 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps that question ought to have been addressed to the Secretary of State for Wales. I believe th...
Mark Tami | 442 c115 (Link to this contribution) I would support the hon. Gentleman on such a measure, but we are not proposing that. Does he agree t...
David TC Davies | 442 c115-6 (Link to this contribution) The system to which Labour Members are thinking of changing will continue to guarantee seats for the...
Adam Price | 442 c116 (Link to this contribution) : Perhaps even the Secretary of State would privately accept that the sight of a majority—[Interrupt...
Adam Price | 442 c116 (Link to this contribution) I am under instruction from the Government Whips not to take any interventions, but I shall give way...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c118 (Link to this contribution) Order. There is no reference whatsoever to that in the amendment.
David Jones | 442 c118 (Link to this contribution) The fact is that this is an attempt at gerrymandering, which does not belong in the House of Commons...
David Jones | 442 c118 (Link to this contribution) All I can say to the right hon. Gentleman is that the Leanne Wood memo must have come as manna from ...
Adam Price | 442 c116-7 (Link to this contribution) Let us look at the results, because the hon. Gentleman was slightly economical in the quotes that he...
David Jones | 442 c117-8 (Link to this contribution) I wish to add my voice to the chorus of condemnation of the Secretary of State. There is no doubt th...
Wayne David | 442 c116 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I cannot allow him to get away with that blatant misrepre...
Alex Salmond | 442 c119 (Link to this contribution) Those are cheers. I am in favour of the additional member system, although I have been elected six ...
Alex Salmond | 442 c118-9 (Link to this contribution) : Notwithstanding what I thought was a brilliantly deadpan and ironic speech from the hon. Member fo...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c119 (Link to this contribution) Order. There is far too much noise in the Chamber.
Alex Salmond | 442 c120 (Link to this contribution) Yes, and that is exactly what I am doing, always, as I do, taking your advice, Mrs. Heal. It is inte...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c120 (Link to this contribution) Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman once again to move on and to address the amendment under discussi...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c120 (Link to this contribution) Order. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would remember Erskine May and continue his contribution to the de...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c119 (Link to this contribution) Order. Will the hon. Gentleman please confine his remarks to the amendments under discussion, which ...
Alex Salmond | 442 c119 (Link to this contribution) I am pointing out, Mrs. Heal, that those who argue that list members are failures should consider th...
Mark Tami | 442 c119 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mrs. Heal. This speech does not appear to cover any of the matters that we shou...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c119 (Link to this contribution) I have already ruled that the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) must confine his remark...
Alex Salmond | 442 c120 (Link to this contribution) I am continuing in a perfectly orderly manner, Mrs. Heal. I am pointing out that the Secretary of St...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c92 (Link to this contribution) No, I will make some progress. At paragraph 4.58, the commission states:"““As the Commission on the...
Alex Salmond | 442 c91 (Link to this contribution) Would the hon. Lady like to try the Arbuthnott commission, appointed by no less a judicious person t...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c91-2 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman anticipates my next point. He must have seen the document that I have in front of...
Mark Tami | 442 c91 (Link to this contribution) As I pointed out on Second Reading, the Electoral Reform Society is not an independent organisation....
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c91 (Link to this contribution) The Electoral Commission is independent. The Electoral Reform Society is certainly not financially s...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c90-1 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend is saying that the electorate are learning how to play the system, I think that he...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c92 (Link to this contribution) Yes. I will not read out that part of the Arbuthnott commission report.
Alex Salmond | 442 c92 (Link to this contribution) Would not paragraph 4.60 of the Arbuthnott commission’s report be an even better example? It sums up...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c92 (Link to this contribution) I have been generous in giving way to Labour Members. I will give way to some Opposition Members.
Chris Bryant | 442 c101 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mrs. Heal. Another point that Opposition Members have refused to understand is that rega...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c102 (Link to this contribution) I was not leaning forward to intervene; I was fascinated.
Chris Bryant | 442 c102 (Link to this contribution) I shall not give way to the hon. Gentleman or to the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gill...
Chris Bryant | 442 c101 (Link to this contribution) I think it would be best if I gave way to the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy, if he can be c...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c101 (Link to this contribution) Order. This part of the debate has gone far enough. I ask hon. Members to return to the amendments u...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c101 (Link to this contribution) Order. I have just suggested that we continue the debate. I call Chris Bryant.
Wayne David | 442 c101 (Link to this contribution) I want to report the facts to the Committee, with a quotation from the Assembly Member to whom Membe...
Chris Bryant | 442 c101 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. I think the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) wanted to intervene—[Inte...
Lembit Opik | 442 c104 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady makes an accurate point, which is supported by all Opposition Members.
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c103-4 (Link to this contribution) Many arguments have been cited, but it is still undeniable that such a change would not stop the abu...
Lembit Opik | 442 c103 (Link to this contribution) The bottom line is that things have not changed. Furthermore, I have not heard a single hon. Member ...
Kevin Brennan | 442 c103 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is correct about that, as the law stands. The same candidate stood against the ho...
Lembit Opik | 442 c103 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak to amendment No. 130 and to talk about the principle under discussion. I understand ...
Chris Bryant | 442 c103 (Link to this contribution) Not any more. It is essential that we maintain the theology that if a political party puts a measur...
Lembit Opik | 442 c103 (Link to this contribution) It is possible to stand in two seats in a general election.
Chris Bryant | 442 c102-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall not give way to the hon. Gentleman. Labour Members believe that there has been an injustice...
Chris Bryant | 442 c102 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s fascination.
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c98 (Link to this contribution) Order. Would hon. Members please conduct debate in the proper manner?
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c98 (Link to this contribution) She might have done, but she said there was no evidence.
Dominic Grieve | 442 c99 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has a very good point. We are signatories to the protocol in relation to free and...
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c98-9 (Link to this contribution) From Meg Russell’s constitutional unit, her colleague Professor Robert Hazell concluded that the pro...
Chris Bryant | 442 c99-100 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) said that she believed that the proposals had...
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c99 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely. This is a nasty, spiteful example of gerrymandering that has no real place in a mo...
Chris Bryant | 442 c100 (Link to this contribution) I believe that all Assembly Members are equal and should be regarded equally. I also believe that al...
David TC Davies | 442 c100 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman must realise that no Assembly Member has ever been told off for saying that they ...
Chris Bryant | 442 c100 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the hon. Lady agrees with me. It happens so frequently that we have almost given up s...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c100 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes what I hope is a hypothetical point. Does he have any evidence that an AM h...
Chris Bryant | 442 c100-1 (Link to this contribution) It is entirely dishonourable for someone to use public funds to send out leaflets and press releases...
Alex Salmond | 442 c100 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman seems to have forgotten what he said. He said that because it involved the use of...
Chris Bryant | 442 c100 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the intervention, because I wish to make it clear that I am not accusing anyone of...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c100 (Link to this contribution) I did not hear the hon. Gentleman be specific, but he may wish to reconsider the words that he used....
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c101 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c101 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman is referring to people who are not Members of the House, which does not me...
Chris Bryant | 442 c101 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way first to my hon. Friend.
Alex Salmond | 442 c100 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mrs. Heal. The hon. Gentleman has accused some unnamed Assembly Members of frau...
Wayne David | 442 c109 (Link to this contribution) I shall give the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T.C. Davies) a chance to make an argument.
David TC Davies | 442 c109 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member will accept that if the rules come into effect they will affect only the parties tha...
Wayne David | 442 c109-10 (Link to this contribution) The fact of the matter is that the rule applies to all parties and all candidates. There is no quest...
Wayne David | 442 c109 (Link to this contribution) Our debate is an impassioned one, and this part of the Bill has excited more interest and perhaps co...
Lembit Opik | 442 c108 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend reminds me, it is the Minister’s Bill, so we do have some clue about what he will ...
Wayne David | 442 c109 (Link to this contribution) The article by Dr. John Cox is designed principally to create mischief in the Labour ranks. He cites...
David TC Davies | 442 c109 (Link to this contribution) I have not had the privilege of reading that comment, but clearly Dr. John Cox thought that the Labo...
David Jones | 442 c104 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Lembit Opik | 442 c104 (Link to this contribution) I will come back to that point, and perhaps the hon. Gentleman can hold on until I do. Let me deal ...
Alex Salmond | 442 c104-5 (Link to this contribution) That also seems to be the opinion of the Labour party in Wales. In its manifesto of 114 pages and, I...
Lembit Opik | 442 c105 (Link to this contribution) I note the hon. Gentleman’s point and I leave Ministers to respond to it, as I am sure they will. T...
David Jones | 442 c106 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the wording of the Committee’s conclusions is incredibly weak? It...
Lembit Opik | 442 c106 (Link to this contribution) That is actually an insult to extra-sensory perception.
Lembit Opik | 442 c104 (Link to this contribution) The answer is that the perception of abuse is not an objective interpretation of what is going on; i...
Philip Hollobone | 442 c104 (Link to this contribution) As someone who has followed the debate closely but who represents an English seat, what I do not und...
Lembit Opik | 442 c104 (Link to this contribution) That puts me in a difficult position, because I listened with the greatest of interest as Leanne Woo...
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c104 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman recall that Leanne Wood, who was very unfairly mentioned earlier, was comple...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c107 (Link to this contribution) Order. Can we get back to debating the main components of the amendment?
Lembit Opik | 442 c107-8 (Link to this contribution) I apologise, Mrs. Heal. I was responding directly to the hon. Lady’s intervention, and I would like ...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c107 (Link to this contribution) Order. I remind the hon. Lady that interventions are meant to be brief.
Lembit Opik | 442 c107 (Link to this contribution) I forgive the length of the intervention, Mrs. Heal, because we can see what is happening to the hon...
Sian C James | 442 c107 (Link to this contribution) We are getting into the realms of asteroids here. People expect their representatives to be where th...
Lembit Opik | 442 c106-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady gives us further evidence of the contradictions in the Government’s position. A furthe...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c106 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman know whether there are any rules to prevent Members of the European Parliame...
Lembit Opik | 442 c106 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I know something about the subject. I knew that the hon. Gentleman was going to say that. The ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c95 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman says that it happens every week, but I was not aware that the Scottish Nati...
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c95 (Link to this contribution) : Like many other Members, I went to the constituency office on Saturday morning; but the pattern of...
Lord Hain | 442 c95 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that it does not happen very often. It has been happening pretty well every ...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c94 (Link to this contribution) Order. There have been enough sedentary interventions, especially from the parliamentary private sec...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c94-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to you, Sir Michael. This is a party-political move. Labour politicians in Wales and ...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c94 (Link to this contribution) I have given way enough, and am nearing the end of my speech. I feel that some of the interventions ...
Wayne David | 442 c97-8 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman considers the other evidence presented to the Welsh Affairs Committee, he will...
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c98 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman had been awake, he would have heard me refer to Meg Russell, who said that the...
Chris Bryant | 442 c98 (Link to this contribution) But she still supported the change.
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c97 (Link to this contribution) I am quoting this; I am not making it up:"““it is not being done on an inter-partisan, cross-party b...
Wayne David | 442 c97 (Link to this contribution) : Perhaps we could take a break from the hon. Gentleman’s reading—
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c97 (Link to this contribution) It is evidence I am giving you. Evidence.
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c96 (Link to this contribution) Risible arguments are precisely what we heard earlier. What nonsense has been put around. I have gre...
Hywel Williams | 442 c96 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend find it strange that the Secretary of State and the First Minister have rubbishe...
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c96-7 (Link to this contribution) Precisely so. That is a question that the Secretary of State may wish to address. We are told all th...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c93 (Link to this contribution) He went on holiday at the end of last week; there was plenty of time for the Secretary of State to s...
Jim Devine | 442 c93 (Link to this contribution) : Will the hon. Lady give way?
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c93 (Link to this contribution) Of course, but it will be the last time.
Jim Devine | 442 c93 (Link to this contribution) May I point out that it is Scottish Labour party policy for candidates not to stand in a constituenc...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c93-4 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that it could be described as a matter of principle. That is what I call a convenient...
David Jones | 442 c92 (Link to this contribution) Has my hon. Friend noticed paragraph 4.57, in which the commission comments specifically on the asse...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c92 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has encapsulated the point.
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c93 (Link to this contribution) No, I will make some progress. [Interruption.] No. Plenty of Members want to speak in the debate. I ...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c90 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that we are at odds on that, for the simple reason that if people understood the syst...
David Jones | 442 c90 (Link to this contribution) Are we not in danger, however, of underestimating the sophistication of the electorate in Wales? We ...
Wayne David | 442 c90 (Link to this contribution) : Does the hon. Lady accept that, given the complexity of the electoral system, if more people under...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 442 c138 (Link to this contribution) Order. I have dealt with that point of order and the House must now move on.
Lembit Opik | 442 c108 (Link to this contribution) I meant sympathetic to what I anticipate the Minister’s position will be.
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c137-8 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Michael. You have spent the past six minutes reading out a raft of clauses ...
Wayne David | 442 c111-2 (Link to this contribution) The Committee had evidence from the Electoral Reform Society and from the Electoral Commission. I wo...
Mark Williams | 442 c111 (Link to this contribution) If I may correct the hon. Gentleman on a point of information, that evidence was given by the Electo...
Lord Hain | 442 c110 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the ban on dual candidature would not change the distribution of a si...
Roger Williams | 442 c113 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Alex Salmond | 442 c120 (Link to this contribution) The amendment is about the strength or otherwise of electoral mandates. As we have been discussing a...
Nia Griffith | 442 c121 (Link to this contribution) Why does the hon. Gentleman think that our party is likely to lose out from these proposals? I know ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 442 c58-9 (Link to this contribution) : I shall speak to amendments Nos. 39, 40 and 43. We had a debate on similar matters last week, and ...
Lord Hain | 442 c77 (Link to this contribution) Changing how we elect our Members of the European Parliament has not been a happy experience. From m...
Lord Hain | 442 c83 (Link to this contribution) I shall examine the matter afresh because the hon. Lady has a point. Since we are re-enacting a prov...
Cheryl Gillan | 442 c87 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reminding me. This just goes to show how many voting systems...
Lembit Opik | 442 c72 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can explain his transformation on the road to Damascus on the subje...
Oliver Heald | 442 c73 (Link to this contribution) Can the hon. Gentleman point to one single benefit of STV, given that it is so damaging to any const...
Hywel Williams | 442 c52-5 (Link to this contribution) Not all of them. The Welsh Courts Act 1942 allowed the use of Welsh in the courts, while the Welsh ...
Hywel Williams | 442 c56 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Secretary of State for his response, and I take many of his points. He will accept that ...
David Mundell | 442 c55 (Link to this contribution) Given the time pressures, I do not intend to reiterate what the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Wi...
Albert Owen | 442 c45-6 (Link to this contribution) I too shall speak in favour of the amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (I...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 442 c41-2 (Link to this contribution) Six days ago, I was stopped mid-sentence when referring to Splott market, and hon. Members may or ma...
Lembit Opik | 442 c58 (Link to this contribution) : Amendment No. 33 makes sense to us on purely devolutionary grounds. I accept that there were diffe...

Notes

Daily part printing errors: (1)Text of Amendment No. 228 omitted from Daily Part given at 442 c298. (Proceeding record UID: 55396). (2) Amendment to Division list at 442 c79 - under "Noes", insert "Field, rh Mr. Frank"

Subjects

Devolved matters
Abuse
Constituency size
Constituencies
Candidates
Conduct
Devolution
Elections
Electorate
Legislative process
Legislative competence
Legislation
Electoral systems
Hunting
Powers
Members
National Assembly for Wales
Political parties
Referendums
Politics and government
Parliament
Wales
Welsh language
Regional list systems
Single transferable vote
Additional member systems
Statutory instruments

Legislation

Government of Wales Bill 2005-06

Link

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