My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 61A, tabled by me and my noble friends Lord Dodds and Lord Weir. My noble friend Lord Dodds has already spoken very eloquently on this, but I will add some comments.
Amendment 61A would require
“an individual to be disengaged from activity which would be reasonably regarded as precluding reconciliation in order to be eligible for immunity from prosecution”.
Earlier, I tried to push the Minister a little on this, because although reconciliation is laced through the Bill, its definition is anything but clear. I still feel strongly that the definition should be in the Bill. However, we are where we are.
Admittedly, the Government have brought forward new proposals allowing immunity to be revoked in incidents involving glorification of terror, as my noble friend Lord Dodds said. It is very disturbing when one watches our television screens or reads a newspaper to see leading, prominent politicians elegising the past—murder—and commemorating those who were intercepted by the security forces while carrying out murder, or who were blown up by their own bomb. In an age of reconciliation, how can this continue? Yet those same people tell us that they will be a First Minister for everybody.
That is the strangest way of setting out. If that is their idea of reconciliation, then I no longer understand plain English. Surely it is time for the Government to take a long hard look at this situation. As has already been said by others, this is not good legislation. It is bad legislation, and it has no support back in Northern Ireland from anyone who has spoken publicly about it. I have not read of support for this legislation, yet the Government are intent on pushing on and pushing it through. Those of us who have these great concerns are therefore making an honest attempt to make this less bad. That might not be good grammar, but it is the best way that I can say it.
We want the Government to stop and think. Admittedly, they brought forward new proposals allowing immunity to be revoked for the glorification of terror, but this does not go far enough in capturing activities that do not necessarily constitute offending, but which will cause deep harm to victims, survivors and their families. If this Bill is about reconciliation, it must take into account the hurt caused not only 30 years ago but right up to recent times. Some tell us that we have every right to remember our dead, and maybe that is true, but we have absolutely no moral right to glorify those who carried out these evil deeds of terror. “Reconciliation” is in the title of the Bill, but that seems to be as far as the Government are willing to go.
The ICRIR will be statutorily required to oversee an amnesty process which runs contrary to reconciliation and which is opposed almost unilaterally by victims. Any sense that the ICRIR can deliver on its primary objective is diminished from the word go. It should be made clear in Clause 18 that one condition for immunity, applied not just at the point of application but thereafter, is that an individual is not engaged in activity which can reasonably be regarded as precluding reconciliation by glorifying terror and violence, eroding support for the rule of the law or traumatising victims yet again.
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Amendment 86A would insert a new clause that
“requires the permanent revocation of immunity granted under the Bill in the event that the immunity requests panel or the Secretary of State is satisfied that an individual has engaged in activity that precludes reconciliation”.
Where an individual benefiting from immunity engages in activity that is deemed to preclude reconciliation, for this or other crimes, there must be operable provisions
to ensure that immunity is revoked. This, presumably, would place the burden on a victim’s family or a member of the public, rather than making it a positive obligation on the ICRIR—or in its absence, the Secretary of State—to act swiftly based on evidence received and revoke immunity.
Amendment 93A would
“allow the offences for which immunity has been granted to be taken into account in sentencing for post-Troubles offences”.
It is accepted that when a court is sentencing an individual, it can have recourse to consider all relevant offending and conduct by that individual, including in the past. A lack of rehabilitation or character reform would often lead to greater tariffs. That principle must be embedded here too.
Amendment 89A
“is intended to probe the omission of offences under section 13 of the Terrorism Act 2000 … from the proposed new Clause on Subsequent convictions: revocation of immunity in Lord Caine’s name”.
The Government’s new clause on revocation of immunity for subsequent convictions is based on Schedule 1A to the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008. The schedule helpfully covers offences in Section 1 of the Terrorism Act 2006, on “Encouragement of Terrorism”, which was the focus of our proposed offence in Committee, and in Sections 11 and 12 of the Terrorism Act 2000, on membership and support for proscribed groups or organisations.
There needs to be recourse to revocation of immunity for the full range of activities that constitute the glorification of terrorism. It is wrong that, while someone in receipt of immunity would be banned from addressing an event that encourages support for a proscribed group under the Government’s amendment, in theory they could lawfully attend such an event wearing terrorist regalia. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, made the point strongly about this amendment and glorification. I urge the House to support it; it would be a big miss if the House does not.
Amendment 114A
“is intended to ensure that designated persons responsible for making recommendations about the initiation and carrying out of relevant memorialisation activities are under a duty to prevent the glorification of Troubles-related offences”.
Clause 48 tells us that designated persons carrying out the Troubles-related work programme
“must have regard to the need to ensure that— (a) there is support from different communities in Northern Ireland for the way in which that programme is carried out, and (b) a variety of views of the Troubles is taken into account in carrying out that programme”.