My Lords, it is rare that I speak in this House and say how disappointed I am to be here. But I think there was some optimism that, when we had the Second Reading, the Government would go away and, in thinking again, perhaps have that pause for discussions that we had hoped. I pay tribute to the Minister, because he did. This has taken longer to come back to us; the Bill has had quite a long gestation period to get to this point. But it is worth noting that the reason the noble Baroness has brought her amendment before us today is that, for all the engagement the Minister has undertaken and all the discussions that have been had, there has been no movement in the opposition to this Bill. It is not a lack of engagement that is causing the problem. It is not a lack of talking to people. It is perhaps a lack of listening and changing.
The noble Baroness’s amendment before us today is a very unusual one, so I hope the noble Lord recognises that it indicates the strength of feeling across this House and outside in Northern Ireland. I think it is a rare and dubious honour to have united every Northern Ireland voice in your Lordships’ House.
The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, and the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, have tried to deal with some of these issues themselves in the past, and no one is pretending that it is easy or that there is an easy solution. But what is essential is that victims, survivors and indeed veterans and others—anyone who has been associated with this time—have confidence in the process. This is what we are lacking today. I suppose the point—it is not necessarily a disagreement —is that we all know the views of the Northern Ireland Assembly. If the Northern Ireland Assembly were up and running and debated this tomorrow, it would not make any difference. It would still oppose the Bill, such is the strength of feeling. I was there for just a few days, the week before last, and in every single meeting we had with every single political party, and at every meeting afterwards, this was raised as an issue and there was no support.
It is appropriate that in Committee we should be clear about our approach to the Bill. The Minister has been generous with his time and we have had numerous discussions, but our position remains the same: we do not support the Bill. Indeed, at Third Reading in the other place we voted against it. That remains our position. The leader of our party has said he will repeal the Bill, such is his opposition to it. He does not say that to wipe the issue to one side; he says it in order
to find a better and different way of trying to deal with some of these issues, recognising that most people want to find a process that works and that this difficult, complex and painful for so many.
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We also recognise, as does the noble Baroness in her amendment, that we are a revising and scrutinising Chamber. We have an obligation to look at amendments, reflect on the issues and have those discussions.
I want to put on record our thanks and appreciation to the numerous individuals and organisations who have engaged across your Lordships’ House with briefings and information, shared their views and experiences with us and suggested amendments that might improve the Bill. I have to say that, in same way that the Minister has said he has been challenged by this, those who have engaged with us have also said how challenged they are. More than once it has been said to us that, even by suggesting amendments or improvements to the Bill, they feel that they are compromised in trying to seek amendments to legislation that they consider fundamentally flawed. I think that is a difficulty for everybody.
So we share the desire that there should be a process and that we should move forward and deal with the issues, but I have to say, as I have said numerous times, that we do not believe that the Bill is the right way forward, and it is disappointing. The Minister has brought forward some amendments, which we will debate over the course of Committee. I do not particularly object to them as they are, but they do not deal with the fundamental problems or go far enough.
Among the discussions we have had was on the question, “What would you do, then?” To be honest, I do not know. I have grappled with this issue, as did my noble friend Lord Browne of Ladyton, who was the first Victims and Survivors Minister in Northern Ireland; I succeeded him in that role. You do not get to the endgame early on in the process. It is a difficult and complex issue, and it is only by continuing having difficult discussions that you can find a way forward. It is not just the political parties; it is the victims’ groups and individual victims and survivors who need to have their voices heard.
I think we need to proceed with the Bill. I would like to see us looking at amendments and sending them to the other place, but I have to say that there is a universal lack of confidence in the Bill. I do not criticise the Government for trying to find a way forward but, as the Minister has heard from around the House, there is little confidence that this is a way that will be helpful. There may be aspects of it that people can sign up to, but it needs much more discussion. As we move forward in Committee, we need far more thought. The Minister has always been willing to engage. Before the Bill even proceeds to Report, there should be engagement that leads to significant change, not just something that ticks a box. That is not what I am accusing him of, but it is how it is perceived by many.
So I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, for the opportunity for this debate. There is always a tendency to feel that we might rehearse Second Reading arguments, but it is important that we restate at the
beginning of the Bill how very sad we are that we are debating the Bill at this stage today. It needs more work and there is a willingness across the House to engage to find something better, and I hope that, as we proceed with the Bill, the Minister will understand that. If there are not significant amendments, there will be disappointment, and the issue will continue to be a difficulty that, until there is not necessarily a resolution but some way forward that commands confidence across Northern Ireland, will not work.