UK Parliament / Open data

National Security Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Wednesday, 18 January 2023, in the House of Lords, led by Lord Bellamy and Lord Murray of Blidworth. The answering members were Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede and Lord Coaker.
Lords committee stage fifth day. Clause 77, as amended, agreed to. Clauses 78 to 88 agreed to. Schedule 15 agreed to. (Part 1 of 2).

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

826 cc1844-1871 

Session

2022-23

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber
Legislative scrutiny: National Security Bill. Joint Committee on Human Rights fifth report.
Wednesday, 12 October 2022
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons
National Security Bill 2022-23. Brought from the Commons.
Thursday, 17 November 2022
Bills
House of Lords
National Security Bill; Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill: Government response. Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee twentieth report.
Wednesday, 7 December 2022
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
National Security Bill. Constitution Committee tenth report.
Wednesday, 14 December 2022
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords

Show all related items (6)
National Security Bill
Wednesday, 18 January 2023
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 826 c1844 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Murray of Blidworth

105: Clause 77, page 52, line 20, leave out “copyin...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 826 c1844 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Clause 77 allows the Secretary of State to make regulations about the publication and s...


Show all contributions (54)
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 826 cc1844-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we are being asked to approve something that relates to regulations that we have not se...

Lord Coaker | 826 c1845 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, has just said, and I shall say a bit ab...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 826 c1845 (Link to this contribution)

I thank both noble Lords for those contributions. I can, of course, reassure the noble Lord, Lord...

Lord Pannick | 826 c1846 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I could press the Minister on this. He said that there will be a policy statement before ...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 826 c1846 (Link to this contribution)

At the moment I fear I cannot commit to providing draft regulations. It may be that there are som...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 826 c1846 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry to intervene again, but does the Minister not see that this is illustrating the whole ...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 826 c1846 (Link to this contribution)

I note the noble Lord’s views on the topic, but we are where we are. Obviously, the department wi...

Lord Coaker | 826 c1846 (Link to this contribution)

I say to the Minister, before he sits down, that in view of what the noble Lords, Lord Pannick an...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 826 c1846 (Link to this contribution)

I hope the Minister will agree to draw the attention of his department to the debate held in this...

Lord Murray of Blidworth | 826 c1846 (Link to this contribution)

I have no doubt that the department will reflect on those points. We are all very aware of last w...

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock | 826 c1847 (Link to this contribution)

A decision has been taken through the usual channels to combine the next two groups, commencing w...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 826 c1847 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames

105A: Clause 82, page 55, line 20, at end ins...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 826 cc1847-1850 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful for the explanation that these two groups have been combined. I spent som...

Lord Pannick | 826 cc1848-1851 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have added my name to many of the amendments in these groups. I declare an interest a...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 826 cc1851-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and my noble friend have comprehensively outlined why bot...

Lord Hacking | 826 c1852 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am also in receipt of an excellent briefing from Reprieve, which was covered excellen...

Lord Faulks | 826 c1852 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I add a couple of queries which I hope that the Minister can help with.

Clause 83...

Lord Coaker | 826 cc1852-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords who have spoken. I very much appreciated the introduction by th...

Lord Bellamy | 826 cc1855-7 (Link to this contribution)

I thank noble Lords very warmly for their contributions, which were pertinent and challenging as ...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 826 c1857 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister simply has not answered the point that this provision in the Bill refers to “at any ...

Lord Bellamy | 826 c1857 (Link to this contribution)

I will further reflect on the question, but it seems to the Government that that specific example...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 826 c1857 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister rightly emphasises the very high degree of discretion that is given to judges under ...

Lord Bellamy | 826 c1858 (Link to this contribution)

The question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, highlights the tension I referred to a momen...

Lord Pannick | 826 c1858 (Link to this contribution)

Can I press the Minister a bit further on this pivotal point? I respectfully suggest to him that ...

Lord Faulks | 826 c1858 (Link to this contribution)

Before the Minister answers, and so that he does not have to go over old ground, I will intervene...

Lord Bellamy | 826 cc1858-1860 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, perhaps I can take this point under advisement, because it is not yet spelled out in th...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 826 c1860 (Link to this contribution)

I must admit that I was more favourably disposed towards some of these provisions, but the Minist...

Lord Bellamy | 826 c1860 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I feel that this is the first time that I have ever convinced the noble Lord, Lord Carl...

Lord Faulks | 826 c1860 (Link to this contribution)

With respect to him, the Minister is quite right: the application of ex turpi is very uncertain. ...

Lord Hope of Craighead | 826 c1860 (Link to this contribution)

I wonder if I may add a thought. One of the words that strike me in Clause 83(5) is “must”. If I ...

Lord Bellamy | 826 c1861 (Link to this contribution)

I can say that the principle is certainly not for the judge to be asking himself, “Should I be pr...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 826 c1861 (Link to this contribution)

I think the Committee is now in a bit of a bind. The Minister stated a few moments ago that the B...

Lord Bellamy | 826 cc1861-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, on that last point, I would need some notice of that question. It is not a point that I...

Lord Hope of Craighead | 826 c1862 (Link to this contribution)

Would the Minister consider the wording in Clause 83(4)(a) that says there

“need not be a c...

Lord Bellamy | 826 c1862 (Link to this contribution)

The causal connection point is to do with whether there are national security factors in the firs...

Lord Pannick | 826 c1862 (Link to this contribution)

May I test the Minister’s patience by asking him to reflect on one other matter? He said, rightly...

Lord Bellamy | 826 cc1862-3 (Link to this contribution)

I certainly undertake to reflect on what further guidance can be given on how the courts should g...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 826 cc1863-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we have had a worthwhile and detailed debate in which the Government have been pretty h...

Baroness Ludford | 826 cc1864-6 (Link to this contribution)

I will speak to the question of whether Clause 87 should stand part of the Bill, which is in my n...

Lord Pannick | 826 c1867 (Link to this contribution)

I have added my name to the proposal from the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, that Clause 87 should...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 826 cc1867-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have very little to add to the powerful speeches the Committee has already heard, but...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 826 cc1868-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, there is one simple principle that everybody has referred to in the debate: access to j...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 826 c1869 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will speak briefly to Amendment 115 in this group, where we call for an assessment of...

Lord Bellamy | 826 cc1869-1870 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, perhaps I can briefly explain, first, the Government’s view of the principle behind the...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 826 c1870 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister makes his case as to the general principle but, if that is so strong from the Govern...

Lord Bellamy | 826 c1870 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord, from a Scottish perspective, asks a relevant question. I shall have to take that ...

Lord Purvis of Tweed | 826 c1870 (Link to this contribution)

I look forward to the Minister’s letter. This Bill applies to everywhere—but, of course, there is...

Lord Bellamy | 826 c1870 (Link to this contribution)

As far as I know, it is not the intention to apply this measure to Northern Ireland, but I shall ...

Lord Hacking | 826 c1870 (Link to this contribution)

Many years ago, I used to sit on a legal aid committee. What worries me is the responsibilities t...

Lord Bellamy | 826 c1870 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall certainly reflect on the practical side. This would be a decision for the direc...

Baroness Ludford | 826 cc1870-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall be brief, because I know that noble Lords are waiting for the Statement. I than...

Lord Davies of Gower | 826 c1871 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I advise noble Lords to keep an eye on the annunciator for further information regardin...

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