My Lords, first I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. As I was rising, I looked at the clock and never in the Ahmad history in the House of Lords has something so innocuous as saying “I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into a Committee on the Bill,” resulted in such an intense debate. I shall remember for next time.
Secondly, my noble friend Lord Clarke mentioned that he looks towards the House of Lords and, as he comes here more often, I assure him, not that I agree with the substance of what he has said, but that his contributions and those of all noble Lords enrich the debate. One of the key components of the House of Lords is asking the Government to think again. I am sure I speak for my colleagues on the Front Bench as well in saying that we have certainly been in thinking mode.
There is a third element before I get into the detail. I was taken by the various descriptions of the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, referred to it as a “pig”. As a Minister who also is a practising Muslim, I thought for a moment that the stewardship and handling of the Bill would cause me a cultural challenge. But I soldier on with loyalty to King, country and Government.
In all honesty, this debate has been an important one. I think we are all agreed that it has again brought forward views on the importance of Northern Ireland as an integral part of what defines our very United Kingdom. Notwithstanding the different perspectives, I know all Members of your Lordships’ House are at one on the principle that the integrity of the United Kingdom must be protected. The fact is that the Northern Ireland protocol must work for all communities in Northern Ireland and, of course, the wider United Kingdom. Of course, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is correct—we signed the Northern Ireland protocol. But any contract—I do not speak as a lawyer but I have done a few contracts in a previous life as a banker—is also signed in good faith. It has to work for all sides and all communities.
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There are good reasons why we are bringing forward this Bill. First, clearly the Northern Ireland protocol in itself is not working, as we heard from the noble Lords, Lord Bew and Lord Dodds, for all communities in Northern Ireland. There is clearly a problem when we talk of the east-west issue, particularly in terms of trade. The other thing is not so much a legal point and was one that I raised in briefings with noble Lords. The EU is aware of the Bill’s existence and I am delighted, as I was sitting here—there is always a bit of trepidation for any Minister doing a debate in the middle of a reshuffle of the Cabinet and the wider ministerial team—that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has been reappointed to his role, because continuity in negotiations is also important. I know for a fact that my right honourable friend has prioritised the importance of our discussions with our European Union colleagues and friends.
Again, the EU as well as our colleagues in the Republic of Ireland are very much—I hope that was appreciated, I am keen to get the pronunciations right here—aware that this Bill is going through your Lordships’ House and it has not, as the noble Lord, Lord Bew, reminded us, hindered the discussions we are having. People will have different perspectives and of course I respect the point raised by several noble Lords about the position the Irish Government or indeed others within the EU may have on the Bill itself. But I can assure noble Lords that this has not prevented us from having constructive engagement with parties in Northern Ireland, as well as directly with the EU.
Therefore, I will move quickly, if I may, into the substance of the Motion and indeed the amendment from my noble friend. I will take both amendments together in the interests of time—the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman of Darlington, and the one in the name of my noble friend Lady Altmann. To address the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, made in introducing this, I say again that it is Her Majesty’s Government’s preference—I mean His Majesty’s Government’s preference; we must get that right as well—that we resolve this issue through negotiations and direct talks.
In this regard, I said I would update your Lordships’ House. Last week again my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and Vice-President Maroš Šefčovič had very important discussions. They have spoken again, reiterated their shared commitment to potential solutions to this issue and remain directly in touch. The Government are engaging in constructive dialogue with the European Union to find solutions to these problems and the Government will—I have given that commitment before—update Parliament on talks with the EU as these progress.
I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, as representatives of the two Front Benches, as well as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, that I will continue to engage with all Front-Benchers to ensure that we are fully updating your Lordships’ House during the progress of this Bill.
I am also pleased to accept the assurances given by His Majesty’s Opposition that they will not press this amendment. I am grateful for that. It is important that
we had this lengthy debate, because the issues raised are important and a Government in presenting a Bill need to deal in responding to it. Those responses may not be satisfactory, but nevertheless it is important that we have a detailed discussion.
On the specific issues that were raised, I thank the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee for its report on the Bill, which the Government are considering. Of course, I take due note of what the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, and other noble Lords such as the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, and the Constitution Committee’s report have said about the importance of the Government’s response being published in good time to allow for due consideration of it in advance of the next stage of this Bill, particularly at Report stage. That point is very much noted.
Taking other elements raised in both amendments, I highlight that, since the Bill was introduced—I assure my noble friend Lady Altmann of this—the Government have continued to engage extensively with groups across business and civic society in Northern Ireland. My noble friend Lord Caine has been engaging directly in some of these discussions, which will continue. They are also important for the rest of the UK and internationally. I fully accept that Ministers remain accountable to Parliament for all this work and will be examined on it, in the usual way.
The Government are also receiving feedback on our various levels of engagement, and we will continue to develop the details of our approach. Of course, your Lordships’ House will have the opportunity to scrutinise regulations. These are being worked out in the usual fashion, including through debates, and the Government will provide all usual accompanying material under normal parliamentary procedures.
The regulations were referred to by a number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, in his closing remarks. They will be a product of the engagement with business to which I have already referred and will, importantly, ensure that the implementation of the new regime is as smooth and operable as possible.
Finally, I also stress that, while stakeholder views are of huge importance to the Government and will be given proper consideration, it is ultimately for Ministers to decide how to exercise these powers and for Parliament to scrutinise and hold Ministers to account, in the usual way.
I am sure that we will return to some of the points discussed in this opening debate during the discussions on the various amendments that have been tabled today, but I will pick up on a few of them now. The Government fully intend to respond to the Constitution Committee in due course. That was raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, who also raised the infringement proceedings, to which the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, also alluded. We have written to the European Union stating that we intend to maintain the existing operational arrangements on the protocol. The noble and learned Lord will recognise that I cannot discuss current legal proceedings further.
In this respect, the noble and learned Lord also talked about expediting judicial review. JR raises technical points of constitutional law, on which the Government
have successfully made representations to date. We are concerned with points of law that are not of primary concern to this debate. However, again it would not be appropriate for me to comment further on a case that is soon to be before the Supreme Court.
Several issues have been raised consistently, as they were during Second Reading. At this juncture and in the interests of moving on to the specific amendments, I say that we are here—there are three Ministers on the Front Bench—because of the seriousness with which the Government take the important issues being raised in your Lordships’ House. We will continue to reflect on your Lordships’ important contributions—the points of principle, the points of law and the points about standing up for international law.
As someone who has been in government for a while—the last time I checked, I still was—I assure you to my core that the point about international law and the rights of citizens, wherever they are in the world, is very important, but no more important than the rights of our own citizens, including those in Northern Ireland. We will reflect on some of the specific questions that have been raised and those that will be raised while the Bill is in Committee and respond accordingly. I am sure we will return to many aspects of our discussion as the Bill progresses.