My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl and to the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, for her helpful interventions on primary care, which were very important.
In essence, the noble Earl said that we should be reassured because, either through the constitution of the ICB or through the more general guidance given out by NHS England, appropriate accountability and monitoring arrangements will be put in place. I accept that, but there are questions about the guidance and the constitution which mean that we may well want to come back. I think it would be appropriate for Parliament to give some oversight approval to that.
We are a bit jaundiced about NHS England guidance because we still cannot get hold of the guidance put out 10 or so days ago about the make-up of ICBs and the new timetable, which I mentioned on our previous Committee day. It is on something called nhs.net but not even our Library can get hold of it because there is a security wall around it, and I do not understand why it has not been put into the public domain. That is why we are a bit wary of any guidance that is going to be put out. I cannot resist saying that I hope the guidance is not going to say that local authority councillors
cannot be on the place-based committees, because that would be a mistake. It could be helpful in some places for them to be so appointed.
On the more general issue of purchaser-provider tension, we have had a really interesting debate. The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, said that every Secretary of State apart from Frank Dobson, of blessed memory—my first ministerial job was serving under Frank before he was persuaded, if that is the word, by Tony Blair’s persuasive skills to go and fight Ken Livingstone for the mayorship of London—believed in it.
The point is that, whatever you call it, there is clearly going to be a relationship between the organisations of the NHS that have the dosh handed out by the department and those organisations that provide the services. There is going to be an unnecessary tension and an issue of accountability and monitoring. The puzzle that some of us have is how that is going to work within the integrated care boards when the big providers are sitting around the table. I think the clue was given in the Health Service Journal, which said:
“In the minds of most acute trust chiefs, it is provider collaboratives and groups, and not integrated care boards that will wield the greatest influence”—
an interesting phrase. I suspect the real dynamic is going to be between those collaboratives and the chair and chief executive of the integrated care board, while the board itself, which looks as though it is going to be very large, will be the legitimiser of those discussions and tensions. Still, it is a bit of a strange beast.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevens, raised the issue of CCGs and the fact that, because they were essentially membership organisations of GPs, they could not do the nitty-gritty of managing the contracts, which in the end was kind of half-devolved down to them but with accountability held at the NHS England level. That illustrates the problem of having providers and commissioners around the same table. For very good reasons people want to encourage them to integrate, but that poses its own challenges.
I think it is inevitable that we are going to come back to this issue. This has been a very good debate and I am most grateful. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.