In view of the debates we have had all afternoon, I am not entirely convinced that Clause 1 should form part of the Bill. I realise that we cannot put the question at this stage, but I hope the Minister will put my mind at rest on this before we leave Committee.
In the Explanatory Notes, which are meant to add a bit of flesh to what we consider to be a skeleton Bill, we are told:
“This clause requires a new committee … to be established and maintained.”
We have not focused too much on how it will be maintained. My noble friend the Minister rather glossed over the fact that resources must not just be allocated but kept under review and, obviously, updated. He did not respond to the point I and others had raised about the onslaught: all the spending of all departments will be kept under strict review—my noble friend Lord Caithness raised this as well.
We are then told, as we have rehearsed this afternoon, that the Secretary of State will “establish and maintain it” and will
“take reasonable steps to ensure that the Committee, once established, remains extant and has the resources necessary to conduct the business specified in this Bill.”
I am grateful to my noble friend for confirming that if the Bill is passed, it will take a further Bill for the animal sentience committee to reach its end of life.
We then consider the fact that
“the members of the Committee will be appointed by the Secretary of State. Standard public appointments rules apply to appointments made by the Secretary of State (e.g. a fair recruitment process is required).”
That begs the question of who will be the judge of whether the recruitment process is fair. I presume my noble friend will confirm that it will be for the appointing panel to set that out.
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Finally, the Explanatory Notes specify that
“the terms of appointment, such as appointment length and remuneration, may be determined by the Secretary of State.”
I conclude from this that we are being asked, as a Committee and a Parliament, to take an awful lot on trust. We have not seen the terms of reference. We are not informed what the budget will be. We have been told that an estimate will be laid at an appropriate juncture, which I presume will be before we reach Report; my noble friend will be able to confirm that.
We have no definition of animal sentience. That takes on immense importance when we come on to consider Clause 2, which refers to whether the department has had
“regard to the ways in which the policy might have an adverse effect on the welfare of animals as sentient beings.”
I believe that too many issues have been left hanging in the air. We have had no real detail on the appointment of the chairman. We understand the chairman will be left to appoint the members of the committee.
At Second Reading, my noble friend Lady Hodgson raised the issue not just of the relationship to other committees such as we have discussed—the Animal Welfare Committee—but of what the animal sentience committee’s relationship to the Trade and Agriculture Commission will be. I do not recall having an answer to that. It would be helpful to know when the Trade and Agriculture Commission round 2 will be appointed. I do not know whether my noble friend can share that information with us.
My noble friend also did not answer the little question of the rural-proofing commission, as I think it was called. Was that an internal body of the department? I am extremely wedded to the rural-proofing policy; it is an extremely important role that my noble friend has undertaken and I wish him extreme success in fulfilling it. Why has animal sentience been given a higher priority in the hierarchy than rural-proofing? I argue that in many instances rural-proofing should have an equal, if not higher, regard.
We have raised a number of issues during the debate that have been left very unsatisfactorily hanging in the air. I would like to hear compelling reasons from my noble friend why Clause 1 should remain part of the Bill.