The noble Baroness very eloquently makes the point I was going to make. I have clearly had representations from a lot of parliamentarians and different interest groups, saying that they must be represented or that this or another interest should be represented on the group and I start wondering whether the Albert Hall will be big enough to contain this committee.
Of course, I would have to be a Minister of very little brain if I did not have a view on the sort of people I think should be on the committee. The problem is that if I start listing them to the Committee now, although it would have the virtue of giving some of the clarity that certain noble Lords seek, it could also constrain the creation of a committee that, as the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, and others have said, should contain practical experience and common sense. I entirely agree with him on that.
I take the point made eloquently by the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, that the committee should not contain representatives of pressure groups, particular groups who are obsessed with one narrow field of animal welfare. If I, or the Bill, were to constrain the membership of the committee so that a particular interest had to be represented, if that individual was off sick or had not been reappointed following the end of their term, and the committee made a decision in that particular area of expertise, noble Lords can see
that this would create opportunities for legal challenge. I am not going to satisfy the Committee because I cannot give clarity on the type of people that we want to see on the committee. I will try to give the reassurance that I know what noble Lords are thinking and I hope that we can achieve a committee that has balance, practical experience and common sense.
I will try to address in more detail some of the points that have been made and I apologise if I slightly repeat myself; I will try not to. My noble friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean proposed Amendment 4, suggesting regulations that the animal sentience committee might adhere to. Although I would not wish to place the terms of reference in statute, I reiterate my commitment to share them in draft ahead of Report for your Lordships’ consideration.
This committee is an entirely new entity with a new and specific remit and to some extent, its first steps will, as I have said before, involve learning and refining. We are clear the committee should be made of members who collectively have the appropriate expertise to enable it to perform its role. I refer noble Lords to the Governance Code on Public Appointments, which provides the framework from which we will be operating. As I have said, it will be a committee of experts who publish reports. It will not make policy. It therefore lacks the sort of responsibility described in the Public Bodies Handbook that might warrant parliamentary time to oversee its membership and internal processes.
I will take together Amendments 8 and 9 in the name of my noble friend Lord Moylan with Amendment 10 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering. I think we have covered membership. It is not the role of the committee to consider the interests of those who work with animals or to identify an appropriate balance between their interests and animal welfare. That is for Ministers to weigh up and decide. That is why I take this opportunity to dispel any notion that a sector could find itself at a disadvantage if it is not physically represented on the committee. That would be a misunderstanding of the committee’s role and how it will interact with Ministers. It takes a wealth of knowledge and experience to understand the implications of central government policy on particular aspects of animal welfare, more than any one person or any one group of people could ever possess. There is, of course, a practical limit to the size of the committee so, naturally, we expect that that it will seek the views of other specialists who exist outside the committee to assist in its understanding of specific issues.
We are in the process of gathering views on the best range of expertise the committee can have to support it in its specific remit. We will also want to consult its chair. I would most certainly welcome contributions from your Lordships, but again I caution against creating a precise list in the Bill.
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I entirely share my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering’s view that livestock farmers know their animals exceptionally well and that their advice could be of great value to the committee, whether it counts them among its membership or not. I entirely endorse what she says. Animals that are properly looked after tend to be in better condition and make more profit
for their owners, and there is sometimes a lack of understanding that farmers live and breathe this. As someone who has been around livestock all my life, I am absolutely determined that the interests of those who care for our livestock are understood by the members of this committee.
As is standard practice for organisations of this nature, appointments to the committee should be a matter for the Secretary of State, subject to the provisions of the Governance Code on Public Appointments. The Secretary of State is accountable for ensuring, for example, that the recruitment process is meritocratic and open. The Governance Code on Public Appointments is clear that the ultimate responsibility for appointments and thus the selection of those appointed rests with Ministers, who are accountable to Parliament for their decisions and actions.
These amendments would run the risk of limiting competition for appointments. The more specific the expertise we mandate the Secretary of State to seek, the harder it becomes to attract several high-quality candidates for each vacancy. The committee’s biggest asset will be a dynamic, enthusiastic membership. It would be most regrettable if recruitment to the committee were reduced to a tick-box exercise, where perhaps a more mediocre candidate was nodded through because they were the only applicant possessing certain expertise.
My noble friend Lord Moylan talked about a three-year term; there may be circumstances where it would be expedient, for example, to extend a committee member’s term by one year to ensure that a certain type of expertise remains represented on the committee. Various Ministers have responded to disruption caused by Covid to recruitment to expert committees by applying short-term extensions. Setting rigid terms on appointments may have an unintended consequence. If, for example, a member’s term ended in the middle of producing a report they were critical to, this could cause disruption to the committee’s work. Committing to a fixed appointment length limits our ability to act pragmatically like this; setting rigid terms may have unintended consequences. Additionally, we should allow some room for manoeuvre in exceptional circumstances.
I hope I have provided some reassurance to your Lordships. I get the message that noble Lords want more clarity and I will seek to provide that. I hope my noble friend Lord Forsyth will feel content to withdraw his amendment.