I thank noble Lords for their interest in the Bill. I feel as if I were sailing a path between Scylla and Charybdis, but I shall try to review the points raised—and I hope that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, says, I shall be able to reassure noble Lords in the process.
I start with Amendment 1 in the name of my noble friend Lord Forsyth and moved by my noble friend Lord Hamilton of Epsom. They raise an important
point, which is that the establishment of the committee should be a transparent and collaborative process. To that end, I can commit to sharing draft terms of reference for the committee before the Bill returns to the House for Report.
My noble friend raised some points about the cost, and I can say to him that the committee will be funded from within the departmental budget. As we develop a more detailed understanding of the committee’s structure and how it wishes to approach its task, we will be able to develop an estimate of its resourcing. This process is in train, and we will share an estimate with Parliament at the appropriate juncture. We will ensure that the committee has the resources necessary to fulfil its functions, as set out in the Bill, while ensuring value for money for the taxpayer. However, I would be wary of defining the terms of reference and the membership of the committee too rigidly in statute. This committee is an entirely new entity with a new and specific remit, and to some extent its first steps will involve learning and refining how it wishes to operate and what expertise it requires.
I shall take together Amendments 31 and 35. I fully agree with my noble friends Lord Forsyth and Lord Hamilton, as well as the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, that policy must be made with culture, religion and both local and national heritage in mind. Ministers are, and will remain, responsible for judging the right balance between these and various other considerations. Nothing in the Bill will affect that. I am grateful for the opportunity to address any remaining uncertainty about the committee’s role and how we envisage its recommendations fitting into the decision-making process.
I can assure my noble friend that there is absolutely no attempt to force Ministers to prioritise one factor over another when taking a complex, multi-faceted policy decision. What the Bill will do is help to inform Ministers about important welfare issues that should, in the interests of good policy-making, be a part of their overall considerations. The committee is there to scrutinise the policy decision-making process and whether it has taken all due account of important animal welfare issues. It is not there to determine the substance of ministerial decisions. I hope that goes a long way to giving the noble Baroness the reassurance that she requires, but I shall come on to some of the specific points in a moment. As it prepares its reports, the committee will be fully aware of its remit, and will recognise the need for Ministers to consider other factors alongside animal welfare.
For the same reason, I do not think that my noble friend Lord Moylan, whom I thank for his Amendment 19, has anything to fear from the committee having the ability to report on policies related to advancing the understanding of medical science. I entirely agree with him and others who spoke on this matter that what is done in our scientific institutions is a “worthy objective”—I think those were his words, echoing the concerns of my noble friend Lord Sheikh, the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and others. The Bill will make no difference to our ability as a country to continue to improve, as we must, how we deal with diseases through testing on animals. What the committee can do is suggest changes to the regulations. As has
been pointed out, this area of animal welfare in this country is one of the most highly regulated in the world. Ministers will receive that information and then be able to make a decision taking into account all the factors concerned. One of those factors may be a pandemic; it may be the need to keep hundreds of thousands of people alive. Such decisions will weigh on a Minister, and he or she will be able to take into account the findings of the committee but not necessarily be bound by them.
I again thank my noble friend Lord Forsyth for his Amendment 37, which would limit the animal sentience committee to producing reports only on Defra policies. I will take this together with Amendment 16 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, which would limit the remit of the committee to those policy areas covered by Article 13 of the Lisbon treaty. The Bill reflects that animals are sentient beings, so it is only right that appropriate regard to their welfare is given in any policy-making decision where it is relevant. Although Defra has responsibility for animal welfare, and I am sure that some of its policies will be the subject of committee reports, many other departments will also have the ability to impact on animals due to our various interactions with the natural world. It is therefore important that the committee has the freedom to consider any central government policy it believes could have an impact on the welfare needs of animals as sentient beings. The committee will have the discretion to focus its efforts on those policy decisions it deems most important in welfare terms. In our manifesto, this Government as a whole committed to the introduction of new laws on sentience, with no suggestion of carve-outs or exemptions. As noble Lords have said, we have previously operated under Article 13 of the Lisbon treaty, which goes much wider than environment, food and rural affairs, so we have operated under this type of regime before.
I will address Amendment 3 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Trees, and Amendment 34 in the name of my noble friend Lord Howard of Rising briefly, as we will return to this important question in more detail as we move through the groups. I remind your Lordships that the committee has a very specific role, which is to publish reports giving its assessment on whether Ministers have properly considered animal welfare when making policy decisions. Expert scrutiny of this sort is vital to good policy-making, particularly in areas such as animal sentience where our scientific knowledge is advancing rapidly. Of course it is, and will remain, for Ministers to make and account for individual policy decisions. We simply do not have to worry that, one day, the committee will demand that we tear up a particular piece of legislation. That is not what it is there to do; it has no powers that would allow it to do so. That said, I would not want to prevent the committee identifying potential improvements in the implementation of existing policy, nor would I want to prevent it learning and sharing lessons from the recent past.
On Amendment 54, in the name of my noble friend Lord Forsyth, we decided not to include a fixed definition of sentience in the Bill, because “sentience” is a term heavily influenced by the latest scientific understanding and so risks becoming rapidly out of date. Our scientific understanding of sentience has come a long way in
recent years and will continue to evolve. It is not necessary to define sentience in statute for the Bill to work. We all recognise that animals are sentient. Accordingly, their welfare needs should be properly considered in government policy-making. There is no need to make it more complicated than that.
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Amendment 15, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, would require the animal sentience committee to produce reports on policy areas that have the most significant effects on the welfare of animals. The Bill allows the animal sentience committee to investigate the decision-making process for any central government policy, from formulation to implementation. I want the committee to be strategic and ensure that its work is prioritised to maximise its effectiveness in highlighting where the Government could do better.
Every Government has a huge policy agenda and it would not be possible or necessary for the committee to look at everything. We should let the committee, based on its independent expert judgment, itself decide which issues really matter and what approach it should take to formulating its work plan. The Bill, as drafted, provides the committee with the flexibility to do so. I would much rather leave the selection of policies to the committee than force it to make its decision by reference to a statutory test that could see it having to defend its selection in the courts.
Both the noble Baroness, with the same amendment, and my noble friend Lord Howard of Rising, with Amendments 25, 30 and 32, have sought clarity on why the Bill refers only to “adverse” effects on animal welfare. The committee is there to raise the bar in the policy-making process. Its ultimate success will not be seen in it giving the Government’s policies a pass or fail—although it can and should call out failures or missed opportunities. Rather, it will be felt in ongoing improvements to the way the Government make decisions affecting animals. I assure your Lordships of my complete confidence that, for the purposes of the Bill, “adverse” effects include missed opportunities to create “positive” effects. It is simply a drafting convention.
Amendment 39 from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, proposes a duty for Ministers to inform the committee of policy in scope, and Amendment 45 proposes a requirement to produce an animal sentience strategy. The Bill underpins Our Action Plan for Animal Welfare, published in May. The plan lays out the breadth of our animal welfare and conservation reforms, both legislative and non-legislative, to ensure the welfare of animals meets the highest standards.
The independence of the committee is important. It is vital that the committee, as a body of experts, has the ability to set its own agenda. At the same time, we will be working across government to promote the committee’s role and ensure that departments engage constructively with it. Requiring Ministers to notify the committee of relevant policy would ask Ministers to prejudge the very questions the committee is there to help them answer. If a Minister has anticipated that a policy might affect animals, he or she is already in a good position to consider the effects. Naturally, the committee will be able to assist in ensuring that its
consideration is suitably comprehensive, but its first priority must surely be to identify policy-making where the impact on animals is being overlooked altogether. This is where the committee has a valuable role to play in its engagement and overall awareness-raising.
I confirm that the animal sentience committee’s work plan will be made publicly available annually. Reports from the committee will also be publicly available, and will provide insight into the regard paid in policy-making to the welfare needs of animals as sentient beings. We intend to conduct a regular performance review of the committee to ensure that it is fulfilling its purpose. This will cover any work the committee has undertaken with other government departments. We do not propose to require government departments to produce animal welfare impact assessments. The proportionate accountability mechanism we are introducing with the committee will help Parliament—it is crucial that point is understood—to hold Ministers to account where appropriate.
I believe that the Bill as currently drafted, alongside the action plan for animal welfare, will achieve many of the intentions of the noble Baroness’s amendments while retaining flexibility and discretion for the committee to focus on areas it deems most important.
On Amendment 24 in the name of my noble friend Lord Howard, in simple terms, by the need to pay “all due regard” to the welfare needs of animals as sentient beings, we mean that the Government should pay the regard to the welfare needs of animals as sentient beings that is appropriate in the particular circumstances. We wish to express this principle as clearly and explicitly as possible in the Bill.
I turn to another amendment from the noble Lord, Amendment 36. Animal welfare is a devolved matter. Scotland has already used secondary legislation to establish an advisory body called the Scottish Animal Welfare Commission, which advises the Scottish Government on those policy areas for which they are responsible. My officials continue to work with colleagues in Wales and Northern Ireland at a working level and we will work collaboratively as we implement the Bill after Royal Assent.
I thank my noble friend Lord Moylan for his Amendments 26 and 33, which would limit the scope of the animal sentience committee’s views and reports on the welfare needs of animals as sentient beings. As I have said, the Bill honours a manifesto commitment. I was in the other place when we failed to move the words in Article 13, and I remember the furore in the correspondence in my inbox that I received as a Member of Parliament. That has stuck with me. I have mentioned medical science and how I hope that I can reassure my noble friend on that issue.
The aim of this legislation is to ensure that Parliament can scrutinise how the Government take the welfare of animals as sentient beings into account, alongside other considerations, in developing and implementing their policies in a way that is not overly burdensome. Removing the reference to the sentience of animals would undermine a key objective of the Bill and would be a case of one step forward, two steps back. It is crucial that we recognise the sentience of animals in law, which is a key part of our ambitions to improve animal welfare at home and internationally. There has
never been any question but that the Government’s policies on animal welfare are driven by the fact that animals are sentient beings.
I give the assurance that the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, required on religious slaughter. The Government would much prefer that animals were stunned before slaughter but we respect the traditions and the culture of communities that wish to see slaughter carried out in a certain way. The committee and the Bill will not change that. Ministers accountable to Parliament through legislation could or would change anything, and the Government are committed to working with those communities on these issues.
Amendment 47, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, concerns the committee’s powers and access to information. The animal sentience committee already has the means to hold the Government to account. If the committee felt that information had been withheld and that, as a result, it could not fully assess whether important animal welfare considerations had been taken into account, its report could explain this. The report could, for example, highlight that the committee had not been furnished with the appropriate information to perform its function effectively. Ministers would then have to respond and explain why this was the case and face further scrutiny from Parliament. There is, therefore, already an accountability mechanism to address this circumstance in the Bill.
We prefer to rely on the good offices of the Government voluntarily to provide the necessary materials to allow the committee to carry out its function. There may be legitimate grounds to withhold information—for example, national security or commercial confidentiality. The role of the secretariat will be critical to the committee in the performance of its functions. The secretariat will be able to work cross-government to support the committee in accessing and identifying the relevant information. I can assure the noble Baroness that the committee will have a dedicated secretariat and all the resources necessary to carry out its function.
I restate the sentiments expressed at Second Reading. We have reflected carefully and brought to the House a robust Bill that aims to deliver clear, proportionate outcomes. The Bill recognises in law that animals are sentient and provides a targeted and proportionate accountability mechanism to ensure that this is considered in decision-making, alongside other considerations.
To conclude, I welcome the scrutiny of your Lordships. My noble friend Lord Forsyth’s amendments were articulated by my noble friend Lord Hamilton—my noble friend Lord Forsyth asked me to state on the record his apology for not being here, but he obviously has a very good reason for that—and I hope noble Lords will be content not to press their amendments.