My Lords, it is conventional to say what a pleasure it is to speak after whichever noble Lord has preceded one. On this occasion, it genuinely is a pleasure to speak after the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, because I tended to agree with most of what he said. I am winding up on this group of amendments very much from the same place as when I was winding up at the end of Second Reading from the Liberal Democrat Benches.
On this occasion, my name is attached to some of the amendments, but I will none the less restate, for the avoidance of any doubt before I get into their
substance, that I am not proposing that we throw out the Bill. The amendments to which my name is attached are intended for debate in Committee. I support the amendment to change the timescale from five to 10 years, but I am not necessarily at the point of suggesting that, when we get to Report and voting, certain clauses should not stand part of the Bill. Nor am I going to support, much to her disappointment, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, and say that I shall vote against the whole Bill at Third Reading. That, to the best of my knowledge, is not the Liberal Democrat party line. We have not said that we will vote against the whole Bill. Rather, there are aspects of the Bill which we and many other noble Lords right across the Chamber argued at Second Reading were flawed and which need to be addressed in amendments in Committee that presumably will be voted on on Report.
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Some of the ideas for today’s amendments are therefore partly probing. If, for example, the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford were passed on Report, perhaps Clause 2 would be a rather more acceptable clause. However, as the Bill stands at the moment, it is not fit for purpose. The noble Lord, Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton, seemed to suggest that it was—sorry, I was about to use unparliamentary language, and I do not think that he used unparliamentary language, so I will try to find an appropriate way of saying it. He seemed to suggest that there was something disingenuous about somebody disagreeing with the Bill but saying how much they support our Armed Forces.
I do not think that is the case. I strongly support our Armed Forces and I am absolutely committed to the stated aim of this legislation. The stated aim of Part 1, as I understand it, is to stop vexatious claims. If the Minister, in responding to this or any other group of amendments linked to Part 1, can explain to me how presumptions against prosecution actually stop vexatious investigations, I would be very pleased to hear it. At the moment, however, that is not clear in the Bill, so we have a real problem. I strongly agree with those I have heard speaking from the Government Benches about the importance of trying to stop vexatious claims, but the way to do that is to deal with solicitors and others through their own codes and not necessarily through this legislation.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, put it very clearly, there may well be cases where, if investigations are going on and prosecutions need to be brought, 10 years might be more appropriate than five years. Therefore, I reiterate the question asked by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, and ask the Minister why the Government have opted for five years rather than 10; is there clear evidence that that is an appropriate length of time, rather than a period that has been plucked out of the air? Absent that, 10 years seems to be more appropriate, if there is to be some presumption against prosecution.
In many ways, the nature of legislation and the points of clauses in Bills mean that the debate does not necessarily start quite where we would want it to. There are all sorts of amendments that could help the
Bill and lead to better legislation. I am certainly not saying that I will necessarily oppose all clauses in Part 1 standing part, but, at this stage, I would like the Government to give us more information about why they think that certain things are appropriate.
After Second Reading, I for one came away with a strong sense that the stated aims of the Bill and what is in Part 1 do not hold together very well. As the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, and my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford both implied, there is real concern about how, if we impose presumptions against prosecution that include genocide, torture and other war crimes, our service men and women would feel if similar legislation were laid in other countries and they could not bring cases.