UK Parliament / Open data

Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Tuesday, 9 March 2021, in the House of Lords.

Lords committee stage first day. Clauses 1 to 10 agreed to. Clause 11 under consideration.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

810 cc1492-1602

Session

2019-21

Show all related items (5)

Deposited Paper DEP2021-0300
Thursday, 25 March 2021
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Baroness Massey of Darwen | 810 c1492 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Massey of Darwen

1: Clause 1, page 2, line 2, leave out “5” and ins...

Baroness Massey of Darwen | 810 cc1492-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 1, 2, 9 and 13 in this group. The thrust of these amendments...

Show all contributions (133)

Lord Dubs | 810 cc1494-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my noble friend Lady Massey, as a fellow member of the Joint...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 810 c1495 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I wish to discuss only the question of whether it should be five or 10 years. It has to...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 810 cc1495-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay. I hope that ...

Lord Stirrup | 810 cc1497-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have some significant concerns over the Bill, but I confess that I am puzzled by Amen...

Lord Faulks | 810 cc1499-1500 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup. Part 1 of the Bill...

Lord Morris of Aberavon | 810 cc1500-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support Amendments 1 and 2. As I did not take part at Second Reading, I must resist t...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 810 cc1501-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, before I start my remarks about the Bill, I would like to say that nothing I say over t...

Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 810 cc1502-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my father-in-law fought in the desert with the Australian infantry, as part of the Comm...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 810 cc1503-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to address this fundamental part of the debate on Par...

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick | 810 cc1505-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti. Like she does, I belie...

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton | 810 cc1506-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness. I start by declaring my interest as a me...

Lord Berkeley of Knighton | 810 c1508 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the well-made points made by the noble Lord, Lord Lancaster ...

Baroness Smith of Newnham | 810 cc1508-1510 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is conventional to say what a pleasure it is to speak after whichever noble Lord has...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 810 cc1510-2 (Link to this contribution)

The debate has been very impressive. I take this opportunity to make special mention of the noble...

Baroness Goldie | 810 cc1512-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen, and all other noble Lords for their ...

Lord Russell of Liverpool | 810 c1518 (Link to this contribution)

I have received two requests to speak after the Minister, from the noble Lords, Lord Naseby and L...

Lord Naseby | 810 c1518 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I spoke at Second Reading, where I said that our Foreign Office should release

“d...

Baroness Goldie | 810 c1518 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my noble friend for his contribution. I am not terribly well equipped to deal with the sp...

Lord West of Spithead | 810 cc1518-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, taken together, many of the amendments that we have just discussed certainly seem aimed...

Baroness Goldie | 810 c1519 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Lord for his very candid assessment of both the situation that we seek to addre...

Baroness Massey of Darwen | 810 c1519 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this has been an extraordinarily rich and challenging beginning to our consideration of...

Lord Russell of Liverpool | 810 c1520 (Link to this contribution)

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 3. Anyone wishing to press this, or anything el...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 810 c1520 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

3: Clause 2, leave out Clause 2 and insert the fol...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 810 cc1520-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in this group I shall address Amendments 3, 5, 6, 17 and 28. This group seeks, in a var...

Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd | 810 cc1521-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I speak to Amendment 6. Its purpose is simple—that the decision that the prosecutor mak...

Baroness Smith of Newnham | 810 cc1522-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as I said in my comments on the first group of amendments, the vagaries of parliamentar...

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton | 810 cc1523-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is a pleasure to contribute to this group. I am particularly grateful to the noble a...

Lord Browne of Ladyton | 810 cc1524-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton. He brings a val...

Lord Boyce | 810 c1527 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Browne, on this because I agree with th...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 810 c1527 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry to interrupt the noble and gallant Lord, but we cannot hear him very well. We shall co...

Lord Russell of Liverpool | 810 c1527 (Link to this contribution)

Lord Boyce, we will come back to you later. I now call the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of C...

Lord Hope of Craighead | 810 cc1527-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I spent four years at an earlier stage in my career as a prosecutor in Scotland. I was ...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 810 cc1528-1530 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will not seek to replicate the eloquence and experience of noble and noble and learne...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 810 cc1529-1532 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, when the Minister introduced this Bill at Second Reading, she said that she detected br...

Baroness Fookes | 810 c1531 (Link to this contribution)

I believe that we are trying to reconnect with the noble Lord, Lord Boyce.

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay | 810 c1531 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord should now continue and we will see how well we can hear him.

Lord Boyce | 810 c1531 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this Bill sets out to make better provision on legal proceedings for our Armed Forces w...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 810 cc1533-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the problem of investigations—as well as of late and inadequate investigations—should b...

Baroness Goldie | 810 cc1534-1540 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, once again we have all been struck by the quality of the debate, which has penetrated i...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 810 cc1540-1 (Link to this contribution)

I am obliged for the detailed and very careful reply that the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, gave, ...

Baroness Fookes | 810 c1541 (Link to this contribution)

We come to the group beginning with Amendment 4. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in...

Baroness Massey of Darwen | 810 c1541 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Massey of Darwen

4: Clause 3, page 2, line 23, leave out paragraph ...

Baroness Massey of Darwen | 810 cc1541-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, again I am speaking as a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, and the amendme...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 810 c1542 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the question is when this condition intervenes. It would be one thing to send a person ...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 810 cc1542-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in principle I am quite concerned about overprescribing matters to be taken into accoun...

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton | 810 cc1543-4 (Link to this contribution)

I am pleased to follow the noble Baroness. I am grateful to her for, dare I say, reaching out dur...

Lord Dubs | 810 c1544 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I also speak as a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights which produced the repo...

Baroness Fookes | 810 c1544 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, has withdrawn, so I call the next speaker.

Lord Tunnicliffe | 810 cc1544-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we stand foursquare behind our troops and we want to work with the Government to build ...

Baroness Goldie | 810 cc1545-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, once again, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, and all other contributors to the ...

Lord Russell of Liverpool | 810 c1546 (Link to this contribution)

I have received no requests to speak after the Minister, so I call the mover, the noble Baroness,...

Baroness Massey of Darwen | 810 cc1546-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, again I thank the Minister for her concern and detailed response. Many wise comments an...

Lord Russell of Liverpool | 810 c1547 (Link to this contribution)

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 10. Anyone wishing to press this or anything el...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 810 c1547 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

10: Clause 5, page 3, line 29, at end insert—

<...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 810 cc1547-8 (Link to this contribution)

There are three amendments in this group, Amendments 10, 11 and 12, which deal with the question ...

Lord Faulks | 810 cc1548-1550 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, these amendments seek to make the Attorney-General and the Advocate-General for Norther...

Lord Russell of Liverpool | 810 c1549 (Link to this contribution)

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, has withdrawn from this group, so I call the...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 810 cc1105-1551 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, that was quite interesting, actually, because of course these amendments are trying to ...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 810 cc1551-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer and to the noble Baronesses,...

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton | 810 c1552 (Link to this contribution)

It is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness. I am particularly interested in her point ab...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 810 cc1552-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the role of the Attorney-General in giving consent to a prosecution has been much discu...

Baroness Goldie | 810 cc1554-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this has been perhaps a narrower debate in relation to interesting legal issues but non...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 810 c1556 (Link to this contribution)

I am obliged to everyone who participated in the debate and to the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, f...

Lord Russell of Liverpool | 810 cc1556-7 (Link to this contribution)

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 14. Anyone wishing to press this or anything el...

Lord Robertson of Port Ellen | 810 c1557 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Robertson of Port Ellen

14: Clause 6, page 4, line 11, at end insert—

Lord Robertson of Port Ellen | 810 cc1113-1559 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the amendment stands in my name and those of the noble Lords, Lord Alton and Lord Campb...

Lord Hope of Craighead | 810 cc1559-1561 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support Amendment 14 for all the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Port ...

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 810 cc1560-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support this amendment, to which I have added my name. It is always a pleasure to fol...

Bishop of Leeds | 810 cc1562-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I understand the stated rationale for this Bill and I state at the outset that I have e...

Lord West of Spithead | 810 cc1563-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow a West Country SIGINTer. I will speak to Amendment 14 in sup...

Lord Craig of Radley | 810 c1564 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord West, I speak to Amendment 14. I strongly support this amendm...

Lord Browne of Ladyton | 810 cc1564-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support Amendment 14 and have considerable sympathy for the other amendments in this ...

Lord Berkeley of Knighton | 810 c1566 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the Minister, who has dealt with our concerns so graciously all afternoon, will probabl...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 810 cc1566-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not know whether I am proud to speak in support of my noble friend Lord Robertson ...

Lord Lexden | 810 c1567 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the debate on Amendment 14 will now resume. I call the next speaker, the noble Lord, Lo...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 810 cc1567-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Lords, Lord Robertson and Lord Browne of Ladyton, and my noble friend Lord Ca...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 810 cc1569-1570 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the purpose of these amendments is familiar by now: to ensure that our service personne...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 810 cc1570-324 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is very unusual for a Green to be among the majority. I will take great delight in t...

Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 810 cc324-1571 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will speak in support of Amendment 14 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Robertson...

Baroness Blower | 810 cc1572-18 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to listen and to speak, however briefly, on Amendment 14, which ...

Baroness Smith of Newnham | 810 cc18-1573 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, unlike the first group of amendments, this group—particularly Amendment 14—has very bro...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 810 cc1573-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this has been an incredibly instructive debate. Every single speaker has spoken in favo...

Baroness Goldie | 810 cc1574-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, predictably this debate surrounding Clause 6 and Schedule 1 has given rise to the passi...

Lord Alderdice | 810 c1577 (Link to this contribution)

I have received requests to speak after the Minister from the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, a...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 810 c1577 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble—

Lord Alderdice | 810 c1577 (Link to this contribution)

Excuse me, Lady Chakrabarti, the Minister has not completed her speech.

Baroness Goldie | 810 c1578 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise for the confusion.

There was a further amendment: Amendment 15. It deals with C...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 810 cc1578-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for what I can call only a predictably clear and gracious...

Lord Alderdice | 810 c1579 (Link to this contribution)

Does the Minister wish to respond?

Baroness Goldie | 810 c1579 (Link to this contribution)

Yes. I listened very carefully to what the noble Baroness said, and I undertake to look at her co...

Lord West of Spithead | 810 c1579 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the Minister for a very clear exposition of how one can get around some of thes...

Baroness Goldie | 810 c1579 (Link to this contribution)

Again, I undertake to look carefully at the noble Lord’s remarks.

Lord Robertson of Port Ellen | 810 cc1579-1580 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for her gracious reply and for her willingness to take this ma...

Lord Alderdice | 810 c1580 (Link to this contribution)

We come now to the group beginning with Amendment 16. Anyone wishing to press this amendment or a...

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick | 810 c1580 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

16: After Clause 6, insert the following new...

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick | 810 cc1580-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in moving Amendment 16 I will speak also to Amendments 25, 33 and 69 in my name and tho...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 810 cc1582-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am pleased, as always, to speak after the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 810 c1583 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, these amendments are designed on the assumption that provisions in the Bill might be co...

Baroness Suttie | 810 c1583 (Link to this contribution)

This has been an interesting and important short debate. It has previously been made clear that t...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 810 cc1583-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the Good Friday agreement is central to the ongoing peace process in Northern Ireland. ...

Baroness Goldie | 810 cc1584-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, Lady Suttie and Lady Chakrab...

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick | 810 cc1585-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all who participated in this short but timely and important debate: the noble B...

Lord Lexden | 810 c1586 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we now come to Amendment 18. Anyone wishing to press this amendment to a Division must ...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 810 cc1586-7 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

18: After Clause 7, insert the following new Claus...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 810 c1587 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this is a self-contained point rather outside the mainstream of the other issues that w...

Lord Lexden | 810 c1587 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, whose name is next on the list, has withdrawn so ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 810 c1587 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have little to say in respect of this amendment. I believe that summary offences shou...

Baroness Goldie | 810 cc1587-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is interesting that we conclude our consideration of Part 1 of the Bill with a genui...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 810 c1588 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Minister for her very careful reply. I understood her to make two particular...

Lord Lexden | 810 c1589 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we now come to the group beginning with Amendment 19. Anyone wishing to press this or a...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 810 c1589 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

19: Clause 8, page 6, line 8, after “forces,” inse...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 810 cc1589-1590 (Link to this contribution)

We move on to a different part of the Bill, which seeks to impose more rigorous time limits for b...

Baroness Smith of Newnham | 810 cc1590-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, at this time of the evening it would be very easy simply to agree with everything the n...

Lord Lexden | 810 c1591 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton, has withdrawn from the debate, so I call t...

Lord West of Spithead | 810 c1591 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 29 in support of my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe and the no...

Lord Craig of Radley | 810 cc1591-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 29 and I support this important safeguard for service person...

Lord Faulks | 810 cc1592-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the scheme of this part of the legislation creates a long stop of six years, subject to...

Lord Boyce | 810 c1593 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I speak to Amendment 29 and the subject of a six-year time limit being imposed by the B...

Lord Lexden | 810 c1593 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, who is next on the list, has withdrawn, so I call...

Lord Stirrup | 810 c1594 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 29, to which I have attached my name. Its purpose is to ensur...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 810 cc1594-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, like my noble friend Lady Smith and others, I am concerned that there should not be a d...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 810 cc1595-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I begin by addressing Amendment 29, which seeks to carve out claims from service person...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 810 cc1596-9 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, my noble friend Lord West of Spithead, the ...

Lord Lexden | 810 c1599 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, finally, we come to Amendment 20. Anyone wishing to press this to a Division must make ...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 810 c1599 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

20: Clause 11, page 7, leave out lines 7 to 28

...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 810 c1599 (Link to this contribution)

This amendment deals with the factors that the court must have regard to when it considers whethe...

Lord Faulks | 810 cc1599-1600 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will be brief. I am conscious that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, does no...

Lord Alderdice | 810 c1600 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of ...

Baroness Smith of Newnham | 810 c1600 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, not being a lawyer, I shall take the approach taken by the lawyers and be very brief in...

Lord Stewart of Dirleton | 810 cc1600-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am again grateful to those noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate. The...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 810 c1602 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for ta...

Subjects

Armed forces

Deployment

Human rights

Legislation

Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Bill 2019-21

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