My Lords, I thank all who have participated in the debate, beginning with my noble friend Lord Wigley, whose passion for Wales wins huge respect and affection not just in Wales but in your Lordships’ House.
My noble friend Lord Foulkes spoke eloquently about Scotland, but I think that he will nevertheless agree that Wales is impacted far more punitively and that this amendment is far more moderate than his.
I also applaud the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, for making the point that twice as many voters trust the Senedd as trust the UK Parliament. That is a pretty salutary figure. She also made the point that there has been a rise in support for independence from a frankly derisory figure that would disappoint my noble friend Lord Wigley up to nearly a third—a point also made by a self-adopted Welshman, my noble friend Lord Lipsey. This should worry the noble Baroness the Minister.
I express gratitude to my former MP neighbour, my noble and learned friend Lord Morris of Aberavon, who has served in public life with such distinction. I agree strongly with his phrase about the wholesale “wrecking” of representation in Wales, which this Bill represents. It is important, as he says, that people know who their MP is.
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I say as gently as I can to the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, that to say that MPs in Wales have half the workload shows profound ignorance. We should recall that a great bulk of work, especially in recent years, has fallen on MPs in Wales—social security matters under the Department for Work and Pensions are held by them, as are immigration issues. These are hugely complex, time-consuming and difficult cases. It is simply not the case that they have half the workload of English MPs.
My noble friend Lord McNicol and the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, talked about the cavalier approach to the union. The Minister should take that issue much more seriously than she did, but she paid no respect to it at all. As the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said, Wales is a special case. She noted pointedly that, while England will have 10 more seats, Wales will have at least eight fewer. Those facts speak for themselves as to where this Government’s priorities are.
I thank my noble friend Lord Lennie for his response and the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, for reminding us that Wales had 32 seats—although it was way back in the 19th century, before the great increases in population which subsequently happened with industrialisation and mining. With respect to her, to pass the buck to the Boundary Commission as being responsible for the number of seats in Wales is sophistry. The Minister and her Government are straitjacketing the Boundary Commission for Wales, as with Boundary Commissions elsewhere.
Nobody disputes the principle of equalisation; it has governed Boundary Commission recommendations for generations and is the basic principle on which the commissions for all parts of the United Kingdom have worked. The question is how that principle is applied. If it is just applied willy-nilly and rides roughshod over local traditions, community identities, interests, geography and all such crucial issues—including, in Wales’s case, a unique topography—then the Government may say that equalisation should be applied in this rigid fashion, but it will not then result in equal representation
if barriers are put in the way of constituents trying to reach their MPs. It turns on its head the traditional role of a Boundary Commission, going back years and years—generations—by straitjacketing its remit. It strips off its ability to apply that principle in the way that it has always been applied: to respect local issues and local communities, instead of riding roughshod over them as the Bill does.
I appeal to the Minister to look again at this amendment, and for the Government to consider supporting it on Report. It is not asking for the status quo; it recognises the Government’s desire to move towards greater equalisation. However, it does so in a less harsh way, with a less punitive impact on representation in Wales. If the noble Baroness and her Government want to speak for Wales as a UK Government, in the way that they claim, then they should respect Wales. This amendment, in suggesting a reduction of five, to 35, has legislative precedent. That legislation entrenched that principle while recognising Wales’s special interests, as I have tried to argue. I hope that she will reconsider her response and that the Government will consider supporting it, as it is my intention to bring it back on Report.