My Lords, before addressing the amendments in my name and the names of my noble and learned friend Lord Judge and my noble friend Lord Kakkar—the clause stand part debate and Amendments 5 and 44—I welcome the Minister to the House and to her first experience of Committee. I sympathise with her, as she has to take this Bill through; she was not part of it from the very beginning, as it had already passed in the House of Commons. However, I have no doubt that she will do well.
I start by saying that if we were not in these times of uncertainty about leaving the European Union, this Bill—if it had been brought to the House in the state that it is in today—would have received the most stringent scrutiny and would have been drastically amended. However, because we do not want UK citizens who live in, work in and visit the European Union to feel the threat of not getting healthcare, we might be more constrained in the way we deal with this. I accept that this Bill is essential to serve the needs of UK citizens who live in EU countries and EU citizens who live in the United Kingdom, allowing them to benefit from the reciprocity of the current healthcare arrangements.
I have to say that, in all its clauses, this Bill is quite wide in its power and scope and goes way beyond what is required to deliver the EU arrangements. I could go on, but the House’s Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee laid it out much more clearly, and I hope my noble friend Lord Lisvane, who is on that committee, has something to say. He nods, so I am sure he will join in. I summarise what the committee said regarding the Bill:
“There is no limit to the amount of the payments … no limit to who can be funded world-wide … no limit to the types of healthcare being funded … regulations can confer functions”,
anywhere in the world. The committee continued:
“The regulations can delegate functions to anyone anywhere”.
That shows how wide the Bill’s scope is.
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The worry about the wide powers the Secretary of State will have was added to when the Minister said in Committee in the Commons:
“The Bill will support the potential strengthening of existing reciprocal healthcare agreements”,
and that it will add to the number of countries,
“as part of future health and trade policy”.—[Official Report, Commons, Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill Committee, 29/11/18; col. 24.]
That worried some people who read it. Is this a Bill about healthcare provision, or one that might include trade policy? The Minister also suggested that the arrangement powers would be appropriate and would,
“support wider health and foreign policy objectives”.—[Official Report, Commons, Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill Committee, 29/11/18; col. 22.]
I know he might not have meant to say that, and the noble Baroness may well clarify what he meant. It is possible he did not mean to say it that way, in which case I look forward to the clarification the noble Baroness might provide.
There is concern about the breadth of powers in Clause 2 and about the lack of future scrutiny by Parliament. My noble and learned friend Lord Judge will no doubt say more about Amendment 44, which relates to what we regard as a sunset provision. I recognise that that might cause a problem in the Bill, partly because it would mean that any healthcare arrangements we currently make with the EU for our citizens to be looked after would have to be revisited, but I would like a discussion and a debate about why that might cause a problem. I have no doubt that my noble and learned friend will expand on it. I will come back to it at a later stage.
At this stage, suffice it to say that while opposing the question that Clause 1 stands part of the Bill might be regarded as a wrecking amendment, it is not. It would be wrecking only if a vote was called and I won it. I do not intend to call a vote, but I put it on the Marshalled List so we could have a wider debate.