UK Parliament / Open data

Ivory Bill

Debate on bills on Wednesday, 24 October 2018, in the House of Lords, led by Lord Gardiner of Kimble. The answering member was Baroness Jones of Whitchurch.
Lords report stage (part one of two). Amendment 2 disagreed to on division (20 to 323). Amendment 24 disagreed to on division (18 to 249). Amendment 40 disagreed to on division (82 to 127). Amendments made.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

793 cc867-931 

Session

2017-19

Legislative stage

Report stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber
Ivory Bill 2017-19. Brought from the Commons.
Thursday, 5 July 2018
Bills
House of Lords
Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee thirty-first report.
Wednesday, 18 July 2018
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee thirty-fifth report.
Wednesday, 17 October 2018
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee thirty-sixth report.
Monday, 22 October 2018
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords

Show all related items (5)
Deposited Paper DEP2018-1114
Friday, 9 November 2018
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Cormack | 793 c867 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Cormack

1: Clause 1, page 1, line 8, leave out paragraph (d)

Lord Cormack | 793 cc867-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am sorry that there are not more in the House at the moment. I think if I were to ask...


Show all contributions (94)
Lord Hague of Richmond | 793 cc868-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have listened carefully to my noble friend Lord Cormack but I am opposed to his amend...

Lord Cormack | 793 c869 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my noble friend but that does not address the issue of antique ivory. He may not...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 793 c869 (Link to this contribution)

We have not come to that point on the rainforests, but I would do whatever was necessary to save ...

Lord Carrington of Fulham | 793 c869 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Cormack’s amendment. I really just want to add to my nob...

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch | 793 c870 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, noble Lords will not be surprised by this, but we are very much opposed to this amendme...

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 cc870-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my noble friend’s amendment would allow commercial exports of ivory to be exempt from t...

Earl of Clancarty | 793 c871 (Link to this contribution)

If this amendment is not passed, what would happen to objects that are confiscated at the border?...

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 c872 (Link to this contribution)

I say to the noble Earl, as my noble friend Lord Carrington mentioned, that there is no intention...

Lord Cormack | 793 c872 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the Minister’s response to that intervention from the noble Earl illustrates the lack o...

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 c872 (Link to this contribution)

With respect, on this matter and with this amendment, I have no option but to tell my noble frien...

Lord Cormack | 793 c872 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, obviously I will reflect on what my noble friend has said. I wish to test the opinion o...

Lord Grocott | 793 c872 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, before the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, sits down, he is normally on the ball on such issu...

Lord Cormack | 793 c873 (Link to this contribution)

I am aware of the general position—of course I am. But we are at the first debate and we do not k...

Lord Cormack | 793 c873 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Cormack

2: Clause 1, page 1, line 21, leave out “ivory in it” and inser...

Lord Cormack | 793 cc873-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this is an amendment about which I feel particularly strongly, because it illustrates v...

Baroness Quin | 793 cc874-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will speak to my Amendment 28, which is grouped with Amendment 2, which has just been...

Lord De Mauley | 793 cc876-880 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I once again declare my interest as chairman of LAPADA, the art and antique dealers’ tr...

Lord Inglewood | 793 cc880-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall speak to my Amendments 24, 32 and 36. Before so doing, I reiterate my declarati...

Viscount Hailsham | 793 c881 (Link to this contribution)

If that happens, there is a real risk that the artefact in question will be destroyed.

Lord Inglewood | 793 cc881-3 (Link to this contribution)

It is as the noble Viscount rightly says. But some will then say, as mentioned in Committee, that...

Duke of Wellington | 793 c883 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 22 but, before doing so, I should like to support the noble ...

Baroness Neville-Rolfe | 793 cc883-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, like others I am in favour of conservation, especially of endangered species. I noted w...

Viscount Hailsham | 793 cc885-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I rise to speak to my noble friend Lord Cormack’s Amendment 2, but what I have to say i...

Lord Carrington of Fulham | 793 cc886-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I rise to speak to my Amendment 25, which is a very specific amendment and rather esote...

Earl of Clancarty | 793 cc887-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I apologise for not having spoken at Second Reading, so I shall speak very briefly. I f...

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville | 793 c888 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I rise briefly to speak against this group of amendments, and I shall not repeat argume...

Lord Vinson | 793 c888 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, if one passes a Bill that defies common sense, one is inviting the law to be broken. Mo...

Baroness Flather | 793 c888 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the more difficult it is to register, the more difficult it is to decide what needs to ...

Lord Marlesford | 793 cc888-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I agree with the Bill and its intentions, but it is has failed the test of proportional...

Lord Grantchester | 793 cc889-890 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Quin has spoken eloquently on the effect of the Bill on future gen...

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 cc890-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, these amendments relate to the scope of the ban and, in particular, some of the exempti...

Lord De Mauley | 793 c891 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to my noble friend. Can he give us an indication of what the level will be?

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 c891 (Link to this contribution)

No, my Lords, I am not able to give an exact sum.

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 cc891-5 (Link to this contribution)

No, I am not going to give an approximation. I used the words “a small fee”, and it will be consi...

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 c895 (Link to this contribution)

They were not cynical. They were men and women from countries that are the most dramatically affe...

Lord Cormack | 793 cc895-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not think there is anyone in your Lordships’ House who would find a bad word to sa...

Lord De Mauley | 793 c896 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord De Mauley

3: Clause 2, page 2, line 11, leave out “pre-1918” and insert...

Lord De Mauley | 793 cc896-901 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, some noble Lords have noticed that the wording of Amendment 3 was jointly tabled by my ...

Lord Cormack | 793 cc901-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I wish to refer briefly to Amendment 6, which is grouped with my noble friend Lord De M...

Lord Carrington of Fulham | 793 cc902-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not want to intervene for long, but there is a slight problem with the definition ...

Baroness Neville-Rolfe | 793 c903 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my concern is with the effects of this Bill, which may come to be criticised in the ful...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 793 c903 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as on Amendment 1, I briefly draw attention to the importance of international co-opera...

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville | 793 cc903-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hague, for so eloquently setting out the case. Th...

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch | 793 cc904-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall respond to these amendments, which would move the applicable date for exemption...

Lord Cormack | 793 c905 (Link to this contribution)

It is perfectly possible to forbid online sales, full stop. We would not object to that. Again, a...

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch | 793 c905 (Link to this contribution)

I find it ironic that the noble Lord talks about sweeping statements. The fact is that we talked ...

Baroness Vere of Norbiton | 793 cc906-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, these amendments seek to widen the scope of the Clause 2 exemptions, which provide for:...

Lord Cormack | 793 c907 (Link to this contribution)

They are also personal property, legally and properly acquired by people who felt that they would...

Baroness Vere of Norbiton | 793 c907 (Link to this contribution)

I think that we have been through that particular hoop a number of times. Indeed, this Bill compl...

Lord De Mauley | 793 c907 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have seen the result of the whipping by the three main parties in your Lordships’ Hou...

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 c907 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Gardiner of Kimble

7: Clause 2, page 2, line 18, leave out “guidance is...

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 cc908-9 (Link to this contribution)

The amendments in this group arise from the recommendations made by the Delegated Powers and Regu...

Lord Cormack | 793 c909 (Link to this contribution)

Will they be able to apply by post? Do they have to download it or get it by email? My noble frie...

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 c909 (Link to this contribution)

I will make sure that I get a precise note. The whole purpose of us saying that people can apply ...

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch | 793 c909 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support these amendments. We are very pleased that the Government have listened to th...

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 c910 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I think it is customary that I thank the noble Baroness very much for her support for t...

Baroness Vere of Norbiton | 793 c910 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Vere of Norbiton

8: Clause 2, page 2, line 18, leave out “Secretary...

Baroness Vere of Norbiton | 793 cc910-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the UK Government have acted in accordance with the devolution settlements and engaged ...

Lord Grantchester | 793 c911 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister for her introduction and explanation of these amendments concerning the devo...

Baroness Vere of Norbiton | 793 c911 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for his comments. I reassure him that these amendments...

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 c912 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Gardiner of Kimble

9: Clause 2, page 2, line 21, leave out “Secretary o...

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 c912 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Gardiner of Kimble

11: Clause 3, page 2, line 39, leave out “guidance i...

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 c913 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Gardiner of Kimble

14: Clause 4, page 4, line 21, leave out subsection ...

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 cc913-4 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Gardiner of Kimble

17: Clause 5, page 4, line 34, after “appeal” insert...

Lord Inglewood | 793 c914 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Inglewood

24: Clause 7, page 5, line 15, leave out paragraph (d)

...

Lord Inglewood | 793 cc914-5 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to the Minister for the way in which he responded to my earlier concerns in ou...

Baroness Quin | 793 c915 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Quin

27: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause—

“Re...

Baroness Quin | 793 c915 (Link to this contribution)

I briefly move Amendment 27, which asks for a report on the impact of the Bill—the Act when it re...

Lord Grantchester | 793 cc915-8 (Link to this contribution)

I shall speak to Amendments 41 and 78 in this group. Amendment 41 would require the Secretary of ...

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville | 793 c918 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support Amendments 41 and 78, which were debated in Committee and the Labour Front Be...

Baroness Vere of Norbiton | 793 cc918-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the Government fully appreciate the sentiment behind the amendments in this group. Moni...

Baroness Quin | 793 c919 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Baroness Quin | 793 c920 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Quin

28: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause—

“No...

Baroness Quin | 793 c920 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I spoke to this amendment earlier. I felt that I was proposing a tightly drawn amendmen...

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 c920 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Gardiner of Kimble

29: Clause 9, page 6, line 1, leave out paragraph (a...

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 c921 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Gardiner of Kimble

33: Clause 10, page 6, line 37, leave out “guidance ...

Lord Cormack | 793 c921 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Cormack

37: Clause 11, page 7, line 13, leave out from “section 10” to ...

Lord Cormack | 793 c921 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will not detain the House very long on this amendment, which is similar to an amendme...

Lord Carrington of Fulham | 793 cc921-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendment 39 is a probing new clause, because I think the issue is already covered in t...

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 cc922-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Cormack’s amendment aims to enable a person who inherits a registe...

Lord Cormack | 793 c923 (Link to this contribution)

Like the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, I too know when I am beat. I do not think it would serve any ...

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 c923 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Gardiner of Kimble

38: Clause 11, page 7, line 32, leave out subsection...

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch | 793 c923 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

40: After Clause 11, insert the following new C...

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch | 793 cc923-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendment 40 concerns verification regulations. As we debated in Committee, it is imper...

Lord Gardiner of Kimble | 793 cc924-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this proposed new clause would provide the Secretary of State with a new delegated powe...

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch | 793 c926 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that response but I am disappointed by what he had to...

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch | 793 c926 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

42: Clause 12, page 8, line 7, leave out subsec...

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch | 793 cc926-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendment 42, which deals with the defence of ignorance in Clause 12, would remove the ...

Baroness Vere of Norbiton | 793 cc929-930 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, for her amendment to Clause 12(2)...

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch | 793 c931 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the Minister and I agree that it was never our intention to criminalise Mrs Smith at th...

Legislation

Ivory Bill 2017-19
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