UK Parliament / Open data

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lords committee stage sixth day. Amendments to clause 7 debated and wirthdrawn. Part 1 of 2.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

789 cc1324-1378 

Session

2017-19

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber
European Union (Withdrawal) Bill 2017-19. Brought from the Commons.
Thursday, 18 January 2018
Bills
House of Lords
European Union (Withdrawal) Bill. Constitution Committee (HL) ninth report.
Wednesday, 24 January 2018
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee twelfth report.
Wednesday, 31 January 2018
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
European Union (Withdrawal) Bill
Monday, 12 March 2018
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Patel | 789 c1324 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Patel

84: Clause 7, page 6, line 13, at end insert—

“( ) No regul...

Lord Patel | 789 cc1325-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendment 84 in my name and those of the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton and Lady Jolly...


Show all contributions (142)
Lord Sharkey | 789 cc1327-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Jolly has added her name to this amendment, but unfortunately she ...

Viscount Ridley | 789 cc1328-1330 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have added my name to this amendment. Unlike many amendments to the Bill, this one re...

Lord Kakkar | 789 cc1330-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Patel, on his amendment. As we have heard, the proposed ...

Lord Warner | 789 cc1331-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as a former pharmaceutical and life sciences Minister, I rise to support the modest ame...

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 789 c1332 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am not an expert in clinical trials but there are remarkable similarities between the...

Lord Ribeiro | 789 cc1332-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support the amendment because I think it is very important after all the points that ...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 789 c1333 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, much has been said in support of the amendment. I do not see how the Government can arg...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 789 cc1333-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I entirely support the main thrust of the amendment in the sense of seeking, if at all ...

Lord Winston | 789 c1334 (Link to this contribution)

I will add a brief note of agreement with the amendment, for the obvious reason that this country...

Lord Spicer | 789 c1334 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have a tentative question. If it is true that we do not trust our own legal environme...

Baroness Thornton | 789 cc1334-5 (Link to this contribution)

This benefits all patient populations, and is particularly important for paediatric and rare canc...

Baroness Kramer | 789 c1335 (Link to this contribution)

Given the noble Baroness’s expertise on this issue, I wish to ask her a question. As I understand...

Baroness Thornton | 789 c1335 (Link to this contribution)

I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness. In fact, several noble Lords who are much more expert...

Baroness Ludford | 789 cc1335-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, when she replies, will the Minister comment on the remarks of her noble and learned fri...

Baroness Goldie | 789 cc1336-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, for raising this extremely important ...

Lord Warner | 789 c1337 (Link to this contribution)

Can I ask for clarification on the subject which we discuss fairly frequently in this House: the ...

Baroness Goldie | 789 c1337 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. This is an area where a dispute resolution procedure...

Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 789 c1337 (Link to this contribution)

Could the noble Baroness answer the question that was posed by the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, ...

Baroness Goldie | 789 c1337 (Link to this contribution)

With respect, I am not sure that I entirely agree with the noble Lord. I am coming to the points ...

Baroness Thornton | 789 c1337 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Government therefore consider amending the Bill to allow that to happen?

Baroness Goldie | 789 c1338 (Link to this contribution)

At this point, we are not entirely in control of matters regarding the future. I know that it is ...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 789 c1338 (Link to this contribution)

I am not an expert in any of these matters, but it is a bit of a puzzle. Why would we want to bri...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 789 c1338 (Link to this contribution)

I am referring there to the old regulations. The new regulations would provide for a better regim...

Baroness Goldie | 789 c1338 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my noble friend for his intervention. I was about to say that the existing UK legislation...

Baroness Ludford | 789 c1338 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister for letting me ask her a question. First, how will that operate if we contin...

Baroness Goldie | 789 c1338 (Link to this contribution)

Taking the last point first, I will need to check that out in Hansard because I do not recall in ...

Baroness Goldie | 789 c1338 (Link to this contribution)

With all respect to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, I will come back to him but I am trying to deal ...

Lord Warner | 789 c1339 (Link to this contribution)

I think the noble Baroness might want to have a conversation with the noble Lord sitting on her l...

Baroness Goldie | 789 c1339 (Link to this contribution)

I think these businesses understand the very real and practical challenges that confront the Gove...

Lord Winston | 789 c1339 (Link to this contribution)

I am increasingly puzzled by this conversation. If you are doing a clinical trial, you have to ha...

Baroness Goldie | 789 c1339 (Link to this contribution)

I am not in any way diminishing the important point that the noble Lord makes. I am pointing out ...

Lord Patel | 789 c1339 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it was not my intention to intervene. I am sorry to do so but it has been forced upon m...

Baroness Goldie | 789 c1340 (Link to this contribution)

The problem is that the Bill is intended to transfer a body of law from A to B. At the moment, th...

Lord Kakkar | 789 c1340 (Link to this contribution)

I wonder whether the noble Baroness will take this slightly different point. If, as is argued, th...

Baroness Goldie | 789 c1340 (Link to this contribution)

I partly agree with what the noble Lord is saying because if this regulation has not become law b...

Lord Kakkar | 789 c1340 (Link to this contribution)

Does not the Minister consider there to be a substantial risk? As I understand it, non-member sta...

Baroness Goldie | 789 c1341 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy, who is advising me, says that once there is a new regime in E...

Baroness Thornton | 789 c1341 (Link to this contribution)

I have already written to the Minister asking for a meeting to discuss this issue and have copied...

Baroness Goldie | 789 c1341 (Link to this contribution)

I am happy, as are my colleagues, to engage in and attend meetings and to listen to the views exp...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 789 c1341 (Link to this contribution)

Can the noble Baroness clarify her constant references to Clause 7? As I understand the clause, i...

Baroness Goldie | 789 c1341 (Link to this contribution)

Clause 7 is designed to address identified deficiencies post Brexit where our existing clinical t...

Lord Lawson of Blaby | 789 c1342 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not think that I am the only Member of the Committee who is listening with increas...

Baroness Goldie | 789 c1342 (Link to this contribution)

With the greatest respect to my noble friend, it is a matter for the negotiations. We cannot rema...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 789 c1342 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, perhaps I may make what I hope is a helpful suggestion. This is not a unique regulation...

Baroness Ludford | 789 cc1342-3 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I may draw the noble Baroness’s attention to Clause 3(3)(a):

“For the purposes of t...

Baroness Goldie | 789 c1343 (Link to this contribution)

I am looking at the provision and my understanding is that technically, the character of the regu...

Baroness Ludford | 789 c1343 (Link to this contribution)

Forgive me, but according to Article 90-something of the regulation, it came into force 20 days a...

Baroness Goldie | 789 c1343 (Link to this contribution)

I am certainly interested in the point that the noble Baroness raises. I suspect that we have pro...

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 789 c1343 (Link to this contribution)

We have established in this debate and in the earlier debates on Amendments 18 and 81 that precis...

Lord Judge | 789 c1343 (Link to this contribution)

If Clause 3(3) will not do the trick, will the Minister please take advice about whether we need ...

Lord Judge | 789 c1343 (Link to this contribution)

I ask the Minister merely to consider it; that way, we might have a solution.

Baroness Goldie | 789 c1343 (Link to this contribution)

I must apologise to the noble and learned Lord; the Chief Whip sat down and bumped into me, so I ...

Lord Patel | 789 cc1343-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is difficult for me to sum up. The message is quite clear to me, although that might...

Viscount Ridley | 789 c1344 (Link to this contribution)

As a result of this debate, could the noble Lord consider the possibility that he, I and the othe...

Lord Patel | 789 c1344 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Lord. That is why I hope the meeting will help the noble and learned Lord, Lord...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 789 c1344 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town

86: Clause 7, page 6, line 15, at end insert...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 789 cc1344-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall speak sparingly to this amendment and others in this group given the expertise ...

Lord Turnbull | 789 c1345 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I regret that I was unable to attend all of Wednesday’s Committee stage, thereby missin...

Viscount Hailsham | 789 c1345 (Link to this contribution)

Will the noble Lord help this Committee as to the distinction in law between a fee and a charge? ...

Lord Turnbull | 789 c1345 (Link to this contribution)

I am about to get to that. There are other fees and charges which, as a matter of policy, raise m...

Viscount Hailsham | 789 c1346 (Link to this contribution)

What about fees and charges? Are they the same?

Lord Turnbull | 789 c1346 (Link to this contribution)

If something generates a surplus, it is equivalent to a tax and should be covered by the same leg...

Baroness Kramer | 789 c1346 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have put my name to Amendments 86 and 127. I will be very brief because the noble Lor...

Viscount Hailsham | 789 c1346 (Link to this contribution)

The community charge was clearly a tax and not a fee.

Baroness Kramer | 789 cc1346-7 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Viscount gives a superb example. We can think of parking charges and a whole wide varie...

Lord Lisvane | 789 cc1347-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town...

Lord Tyler | 789 cc1348-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am a co-signatory to Amendment 126, as the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, said. I want to ...

Baroness Whitaker | 789 c1349 (Link to this contribution)

With some timidity, may I offer a cruder and less specialised perspective, somewhat along the lin...

Viscount Hailsham | 789 cc1349-1350 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support the amendments in this group, most notably Amendment 86, the lead amendment. ...

Lord Turnbull | 789 c1350 (Link to this contribution)

I do not think I was making a distinction between fees and charges—they are just words. They broa...

Viscount Hailsham | 789 c1350 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to the noble Lord and I am sorry if I misunderstood him, but I understood that...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 789 c1350 (Link to this contribution)

May I throw another word into this taxation Scrabble? What about the word “contribution”? Most of...

Viscount Hailsham | 789 c1350 (Link to this contribution)

The point is a very sound one, though of course most of us no longer pay national insurance contr...

Viscount Hailsham | 789 c1351 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friend Lord Forsyth was also guilty, I hasten to say; we were the same in that respect.<...

Lord Deben | 789 c1351 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I was once estimably advised by the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull. I want to look at this a...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 789 c1351 (Link to this contribution)

I do not wish to prolong this but I have been reflecting on the definition by the noble Lord, Lor...

Lord Deben | 789 cc1351-2 (Link to this contribution)

It seems to me that almost any circumstance does not fit this part of the Bill; indeed, I find it...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 789 c1352 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I make two short suggestions. One is that all the words that we have heard today should...

Lord Cormack | 789 cc1352-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Deben, in his scintillating speech, referred to the power of arbit...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 789 c1353 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friend mentioned VAT. Is that not an example of where Parliament no longer has the power...

Lord Cormack | 789 cc1353-4 (Link to this contribution)

Our leaving the European Union is an exceptionally unfortunate measure that will do great damage ...

Lord Judge | 789 c1354 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my name is to Amendment 126. I do not want to say very much. I can think of another wor...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 789 c1354 (Link to this contribution)

The general principle referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, which has been very clearly e...

Lord Callanan | 789 cc1354-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendments 86, 126, 127 and 155—in the name of the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayter and La...

Viscount Hailsham | 789 c1355 (Link to this contribution)

Will my noble friend tell the Committee what, in his view, is the essential difference between a ...

Lord Callanan | 789 c1355 (Link to this contribution)

If my noble friend will stay with me, I will come on to that. Beyond that specific issue, I will ...

Lord Deben | 789 c1355 (Link to this contribution)

There is a large number of fees that are paid to, for example, the Environment Agency, to carry o...

Lord Lisvane | 789 c1356 (Link to this contribution)

Before the Minister responds to that point, could he also answer my question? He has sought to ma...

Viscount Hailsham | 789 c1356 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry for my noble friend, but he did say that both the fees and the charges were subject to...

Lord Callanan | 789 cc1356-7 (Link to this contribution)

I do not have the specific clause in front of me, but I am sure that is the case and I will write...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 789 c1357 (Link to this contribution)

That is a very interesting point. Would that be remediable if we were to stay within the European...

Lord Callanan | 789 c1357 (Link to this contribution)

If we were part of the European Economic Area, I assume that we would not need to do that. Howeve...

Lord Adonis | 789 c1357 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord makes some very good points about how we might need to levy charges or fees, or wh...

Lord Callanan | 789 c1357 (Link to this contribution)

Because in such circumstances we will need to react quickly in the light of the events as they ha...

Lord Callanan | 789 c1357 (Link to this contribution)

I did not want to use the word “expedient”, as it had been referred to.

Lord Callanan | 789 c1358 (Link to this contribution)

It would be totally appropriate and, indeed, necessary to do so in the circumstances. We are in a...

Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 789 c1358 (Link to this contribution)

There is a different eventuality using the same example that the noble Lord gave—namely, the even...

Lord Callanan | 789 c1358 (Link to this contribution)

No, I am not suggesting that we might be in breach of our international obligations. However, as ...

Lord Adonis | 789 c1358 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, will the Minister take the message from this House that we are very happy to have this ...

Lord Callanan | 789 c1358 (Link to this contribution)

I take on board the sincere nature of the noble Lord’s assurances on this matter.

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 789 c1358 (Link to this contribution)

Might my noble friend point out to the noble Lord that, if it is about taxation, that burden woul...

Lord Callanan | 789 c1359 (Link to this contribution)

I assume that that was the noble Lord’s point.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 789 c1359 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, since we are discovering the enormous complexity of all this, on the previous amendment...

Lord Callanan | 789 c1359 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord makes a good point. I was speaking to my noble friend Lady Goldie about the matter...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 789 cc1359-1360 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I think it will be obvious why I spoke so briefly at the beginning of this debate, as I...

Lord Judge | 789 c1360 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Judge

87: Clause 7, page 6, line 17, leave out “relevant”

Lord Judge | 789 cc1360-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the amendments in this group go to a simple but crucial issue. The Bill proposes to giv...

Lord Callanan | 789 c1361 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I had intended to stand up before the noble and learned Lord sat down to respond to his...

Viscount Hailsham | 789 cc1361-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in view of what my noble friend has said, I can be very brief. I support the first four...

Lord McNally | 789 cc1362-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my name has been added to a number of the amendments in this group and I appreciate the...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 789 c1363 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I want to add one short point to what has been said about sentences of imprisonment. It...

Lord Cormack | 789 c1363 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support what the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, has just said and ever so slightly disagre...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 789 cc1363-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, has just said. As the noble and learned...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 789 cc1364-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in this context, I draw attention to the paragraphs in the Delegated Powers and Regulat...

Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted | 789 cc1365-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am sorry that there are too many speakers from this part of the Chamber, but I should...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 789 cc1366-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, because the case was made so clearly by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, with th...

Lord Callanan | 789 cc1367-8 (Link to this contribution)

First, I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, and my noble friend Lord Hailsham for brin...

Lord Beith | 789 c1368 (Link to this contribution)

I wonder if the Minister could help us. He seems to be arguing what might be a coherent case for ...

Lord Callanan | 789 cc1368-9 (Link to this contribution)

I understand the noble Lord’s concern, which comes on to the same point made by the noble Barones...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 789 c1369 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord just used a different word—“widening”—but I think his earlier example was making a...

Lord Callanan | 789 cc1369-1370 (Link to this contribution)

No, that is not what I meant.

It is therefore vital that the Bill can provide for “creating...

Lord Judge | 789 c1370 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am troubled by just one observation made by the Minister. I think someone has been ad...

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara | 789 c1370 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

88: Clause 7, page 6, line 18, at end insert—

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara | 789 cc1370-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in moving Amendment 88, which is in my name and those of the noble Lords, Lord Warner a...

Lord Warner | 789 cc1372-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have added my name to the amendments and agree entirely with what the noble Lord, Lor...

Lord Clement-Jones | 789 cc1374-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and speak to Amendment 88 and t...

Baroness Goldie | 789 cc1375-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for bringing before us what are undoubtedly ver...

Lord Clement-Jones | 789 c1376 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, since we are in Committee I have a question for the Minister. She has said that there m...

Baroness Goldie | 789 c1377 (Link to this contribution)

I say to the noble Lord that a phrase I used last week was that we need the powers to be broad en...

Lord Warner | 789 c1377 (Link to this contribution)

Could the Minister say something about the points I made in drawing on the debate we had earlier ...

Baroness Goldie | 789 c1377 (Link to this contribution)

I say to the noble Lord that I am still recovering from the debate on Amendment 84. I listened ve...

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara | 789 c1377 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Warner and Lord Clement-Jones, for their contributions. T...

Lord Faulks | 789 c1377 (Link to this contribution)

I know that the noble Lord is coming back to an issue which was much discussed during the course ...

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara | 789 c1378 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention, because it allows me to refer back to the r...

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