My Lords, these amendments raise a number of important points about the process for bringing forward a proposal for a police and crime commissioner to take on the governance of the fire and rescue service. I shall take each of the amendments tabled in turn.
Amendment 45 would require a police and crime commissioner to meet the costs incurred by a fire and rescue authority in providing information requested by the PCC for the purposes of the preparation of his or her proposals. To produce a comprehensive business case, police and crime commissioners will have to work with the fire and rescue authorities in their police area. This will obviously require a degree of information-sharing, which is why the Bill places a duty on fire and rescue authorities to co-operate with police and crime commissioners in the development of their proposals.
Requiring police and crime commissioners to meet the costs incurred would be contrary to the principle of local collaboration—we talked about common costs—and could introduce barriers to effective co-operation between police and crime commissioners and fire and rescue authorities. I want to be clear that, under the duty, fire and rescue authorities are required to provide only such information as the police and crime commissioner might reasonably require. Therefore, fire and rescue authorities would already have grounds to refuse a request if they considered it to be unreasonable. That strikes the right balance between ensuring that police and crime commissioners are able to prepare a robust business case, while safeguarding fire and rescue authorities from being subjected to unreasonable and burdensome requests.
Amendments 45 to 49 and Amendment 55 all deal, in one way or another, with the issue of consultation. Amendment 47 requires a PCC to consult fully with people in their local police area before submitting their proposal to the Home Secretary. The Bill already requires a PCC to seek the views of people in their police area, but provides flexibility over how this is done. That is important to enable PCCs to reflect the different local arrangements that exist in different areas.
I note that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, expressed some scepticism about the requirement to seek local views, and whether it was robust enough. Just to speak from my own experiences in Greater Manchester, given how the PCC—we have an interim mayor who is also an interim PCC—and all the various authorities and agencies interact with each other, it is no environment for an autocrat to ignore the feelings of local authorities or other agencies with which he or she works. It would make for a very unsatisfactory outcome if he or she ploughed ahead regardless, without considering the concerns of other bodies. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, mentioned trade unions, which in some places are crucial in the determination of these things; local authorities most certainly are, in Greater
Manchester. The way it operates is collegiate, and always has been, for some 30 years. I give noble Lords the comfort from my own experiences. As a lone Conservative in a group of 10 local authorities, of which one other was Lib Dem, I know that to work in that collegiate way is crucial to the fortunes of the combined authority and the PCC. I contend that, in practice, what the noble Baroness suggests might happen is very unlikely to happen.
Amendment 48 seeks to replace the reference to the police area with one to the fire and rescue authority area. Such a change would, however, have no material effect. Any proposal put forward by a PCC, or two PCCs acting jointly, must maintain co-terminous police and fire and rescue authority areas, as we have said. For example, any proposal put forward by the Sussex PCC must relate to taking on the governance of both East and West Sussex fire and rescue authorities. It follows that, in seeking the views of people in the Sussex police area, the PCC would also seek the views of people in the two affected fire and rescue authority areas.
The noble Lord talked about referenda. Those are not just expensive undertakings—we estimate the average cost in respect of an average-sized police force would be £1.6 million—but lengthy. We are talking about individuals who are directly elected by the people; making them additionally go through a referendum when they are already mandated by the people would probably not be wise. There is a remedy to PCCs not entirely doing what is in the best interests of local people: voting them out at the next election.
Amendment 49 makes provision for a PCC to publish the outcome of the consultation on their local business case. I recognise the important principle behind this amendment and am sympathetic to it. It is generally considered good practice for public bodies to be clear and transparent about the outcome of any public consultation, and we would not expect a PCC to behave any differently in this instance. Accordingly, I would be content to consider this amendment further in advance of Report.
Amendment 55 seeks to extend the duty on a PCC to consult relevant local authorities on a local business case to encompass any local authority which might be affected by the proposed transfer. I hope the noble Baroness will agree that, in the example I have given, it would almost be a given that local authorities would be involved in the process.
A police and crime commissioner’s proposals will need to set out clearly the benefits that a transfer of governance will bring. It is only right that a local authority that shares its boundaries with the fire and rescue authority or whose boundaries fall within the fire and rescue authority should definitely have its say, but I do not agree that it is necessary to extend this duty any further. While it is true that decisions on the deployment of resources have the potential to impact on neighbouring local authority areas, or authorities with which the fire and rescue authority collaborates, I want to be clear that these are operational issues and, as such, would be a matter for the chief fire officer, rather than for the PCC’s business case. Furthermore, where a police and crime commissioner intends to
submit a local business case, the Bill does not prohibit consulting with additional local authorities, should they wish to do so.
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Amendment 46 covers similar ground, but would add the relevant fire and rescue authority to the list of consultees. The Bill confers a duty on the PCC to consult each relevant authority on their proposal. This ensures that the consultation requirement captures all local authorities that operate fire and rescue committees or nominate members to a combined or metropolitan fire and rescue authority. We therefore do not agree that it is necessary separately to provide for consultation with fire and rescue authorities.
Amendments 50 and 53, when taken together, seek to introduce a requirement for there to be local agreement—either by all relevant local authorities or signified through a local referendum—to any proposal by a PCC to take on the governance of fire and rescue in their local area. I must reiterate yet again that the Government are not mandating the transfer of fire and rescue authorities to police and crime commissioners. These provisions are locally enabling and acknowledge that local leaders are best placed to assess what would work best in their areas. That is why a PCC wishing to take on responsibility for fire and rescue will have to work with the relevant fire and rescue authority, or authorities, to prepare a business case, setting out their assessment of the benefits and any costs of a transfer. The business case will, in particular, need to show how their proposals would be in the interests of either economy, efficiency and effectiveness on one hand, or public safety on the other. Only where the Home Secretary is satisfied that there is a strong case demonstrating that one or both these tests have been met, will she make an order for the transfer of governance. Furthermore, the PCC will be required to consult locally on their proposals, which will give affected parties the chance to have their say.
It would not be appropriate for fire and rescue authorities to have to agree to their own abolition in order for a transfer of governance to go ahead. Where a PCC does not have local agreement but still considers that there is a strong local case, he or she may submit the business case to the Home Secretary but must additionally provide information on the objections raised and their response to them. In such cases, the Home Secretary will be required to give consideration to those objections and to secure an independent assessment of the PCC’s business case before she takes a view on whether to give effect to the transfer. I assure the Committee that this is not simply a case of the Home Secretary rubber-stamping a PCC’s proposal. It will be a robust, independent process that allows those with the appropriate experience and expertise—for example, Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary or the Chief Fire and Rescue Adviser—to scrutinise the case made by the PCC and to verify whether or not there is a valid case for a transfer to take place. Where there is clear merit in a transfer taking place that could benefit local communities, it would be wrong to allow vested local interests to stand in the way. Alternatively, if there is validity in the local opposition, the independent review process will substantiate it.
We believe that the existing provisions in the Bill are more than adequate to ensure that a robust assessment is made, local views are taken into account and the business case is properly scrutinised. I am concerned that these amendments would introduce unnecessary and unjustifiable barriers that serve to inhibit positive collaboration taking place at a local level. Permitting local authorities a right of veto could delay or prevent the implementation of important reforms that would be in the best interests of local communities. I have spoken about the costs of a referendum and the length of time that it would take.
I just go back to the point on trade unions: further to what I said to noble Lords, we would expect a PCC bringing forward a proposal to inform and consult trade union representatives on the implications of the proposal for staff. The Home Secretary would expect details of this consultation with staff representatives to be included in the business case. I said that I would expect it; I am now making it clear that the Government would expect that.
Amendment 51 relates to the process to be applied where there is no local agreement to a PCC’s proposal. In such cases, the Bill requires the Home Secretary to seek an independent assessment and she must also take into account the results from the PCC’s local consultation. The independent assessment commissioned could be from the Chief Fire and Rescue Adviser, HM Inspectorate of Constabulary, or an otherwise independent person with appropriate expertise. The Home Secretary would then decide whether or not to approve the transfer to the PCC based on the findings of that independent assessment. The Government are confident that the provisions in the Bill requiring the independent assessment of a business case where local agreement cannot be reached are suitably robust and will help the Home Secretary to make an impartial determination. I am not persuaded that a requirement on the Home Secretary to seek advice from a panel of experts selected by the PCC and relevant local authorities would lead to any greater independence. Indeed, I fear the reverse: that such an arrangement would be less independent, as the PCC and relevant local authorities may be tempted to nominate people sympathetic to their views.
Finally, Amendments 52 and 54 seek to remove the Home Secretary’s ability to approve a police and crime commissioner’s proposal to take on the governance of the fire and rescue service with modifications. The idea behind the amendments is that, in practice, such modifications, where required, would usually be minimal to ensure a PCC is able fully to discharge their fire and rescue functions. In such cases, it would not be proportionate or practical to require a PCC to carry out a further consultation on their local business case and to resubmit it to the Home Secretary. I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, that the Home Secretary would be unable to act unilaterally to make any changes to a police and crime commissioner’s proposal. She would be under a clear duty to consult the relevant PCC and fire and rescue authorities and to take their views into consideration before taking action.
I apologise for my lengthy response but this is an important set of amendments. I will certainly take away Amendment 49 and give it further sympathetic
consideration, but I hope that the Committee will understand why we believe that the procedures for making a section 4A order, as currently provided for in Schedule 1 to the Bill, are robust. I invite the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.