The noble Lord gave me that invitation this morning. I was happy to take it up then and I am happy to take it up now. It is good to see how things are working well on the ground. It gives one a much better picture than hearing about the theoretical application. I would be happy to visit.
I was talking about Northamptonshire, where there is an interoperability programme working towards bringing the police and fire and, in the longer term, the ambulance service even closer together. Their achievements include joint delivery of training, shared fleet and logistics, co-location of premises across a number of sites and a fully integrated prevention and community protection team. That has delivered savings of more than £460,000 to date.
In Hampshire, the H3 project has successfully integrated police, fire and county council back-office functions to deliver savings across the three services of approximately £4 million per year. I hope that this goes to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Harris. He asked why, if it is working so well, we are doing what we are doing. There are so many more collaborative projects that I could list, but collaboration is still patchy. More needs to be done to ensure that it becomes common practice at a local level. That is why the Bill introduces a raft of measures to ensure that collaboration can go further.
Amendments 1 and 2 probe why the test for making a collaboration agreement is whether the proposed collaboration would be in the interests of efficiency or effectiveness, whereas the first limb of the test for making an order establishing a PCC-style fire and rescue authority is based on whether the PCC’s proposal would be in the interests of economy, efficiency and effectiveness. Of course it is important that the potential economic impacts of collaborations are taken into account by the emergency services. However, these considerations are already provided for in the Bill. I hope that that answers the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. The Bill states that services must consider whether potential collaborations are in the interests of the efficiency or effectiveness of the
services involved. Considerations of the financial implications for the service in question would form part of that process.
That aside, the reason for the drafting approach taken in Clause 2 is essentially one of consistency. The test for the duty to collaborate in this clause mirrors that in respect of collaboration agreements between police forces under Section 23A of the Police Act 1996. Similarly, the adoption of the three “Es” in the test for making an order establishing a PCC-style fire and rescue authority mirrors the existing tests, in the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004, in relation to the merger of fire and rescue authorities. As we are operating in this Bill on existing legislation, it is important to maintain consistency where possible.
The noble Baroness also talked about “its”. The “its” in Clause 2(4)(a) relates to the first proposed party. The “its” in Clause 2(4)(b) relates to the second or further proposed parties. No one will be frogmarched into a collaboration agreement; it must be agreed between the parties.
Amendment 3 would introduce additional and in our view unnecessary barriers to collaboration and duplicates existing duties on the emergency services to engage with local people when exercising their functions. For instance, PCCs have existing duties under Section 96 of the Police Act 1996 to engage with local people when exercising their functions. “Local people” is broad in its scope. It is up to individual areas and localities to agree what that means. Further, ambulance services are also required to make arrangements for the involvement of users when there are proposals to change the way in which the services are provided under Section 242 of the National Health Service Act 2006.
Similarly, fire and rescue services must have regard to the Fire and Rescue National Framework for England, which provides that they must be transparent and accountable to their communities for their decisions and actions, and must provide the opportunity for communities to help to plan their local services through effective consultation and involvement. Given these existing requirements, I am not persuaded that the additional, bespoke duty to consult before entering into a collaboration agreement is either necessary or proportionate.
4.30 pm
I am more sympathetic to Amendment 6. When the emergency services consider opportunities to collaborate, we would expect them to ensure that such projects would not have a negative impact on the safety of the communities that they serve. The Bill already provides that the emergency services are not required to enter into a proposed collaboration if it would adversely affect either their effectiveness or efficiency. We would expect that any consideration of the impact of collaboration on the service’s effectiveness would take account of the impact on public safety, which is a primary function of all emergency services.
Further, the duty to collaborate is broad to allow for local discretion in how it is implemented, so that the emergency services themselves can decide how best
to collaborate for the benefit of their communities. I hope that gets to the nub of the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. We would expect the emergency services to consider their duties relating to public safety when considering what opportunities there are to collaborate in the interests of efficiency or effectiveness.
However, I am minded to give further consideration to the amendment. There may be other ways to make it clear that there is absolutely no question of collaborations being proposed that would have a detrimental effect on public safety. If the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, would be content to withdraw his amendment, I will reflect further in advance of Report on what he has said, although he will understand that I cannot give an absolute commitment at this stage to bring forward a government amendment.
Finally, I recognise the important principle that Amendment 7 seeks to uphold, namely the operational independence of chief constables. The existing duty to consult already affords chief constables the opportunity to make objections on operational grounds—and, indeed, on any other grounds. I would expect that a police and crime commissioner would consider any such objection very carefully and discuss it with the chief constable before proceeding. If a chief constable continues to voice operational objections to a proposed collaboration agreement, we would expect a PCC to have regard to these concerns. Under the Policing Protocol Order 2011, PCCs are under a duty not to fetter the operational independence of the police force and the chief constable who leads it.
I should add that this provision in the Bill regarding consultation with the chief constable mirrors that applicable to collaboration agreements between local policing bodies made under Section 23A of the Police Act 1996. The existing provisions have worked effectively without any difficulties and, in the interests of consistency, we should adopt the same approach here.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked who decides whether a collaboration agreement is in the interests of efficiency or effectiveness and what sanctions there are if a service refuses to collaborate. It is for the individual emergency services to consider whether it is in the interests of their efficiency or effectiveness to enter into a collaboration agreement. If one service considers that it is in the interest of its efficiency or effectiveness to give effect to a collaboration but the other service or services do not, the service proposing the collaboration cannot force those services to collaborate and the duty would not apply.