My Lords, there is one difference missing here. We are, essentially, talking about good employee relations and resolving problems. We are not necessarily talking about management and unions. We should be directing our energy and thought processes towards how to get the best employee relations and, thus, the best-quality service for the taxpayer. When a trade union representative engages in bargaining with an employer, we surely do not expect the trade union to pay for it. If we did, we would expect the taxpayer to look at how much time was spent by the employer’s side. In other words, could it be that the amount of time employers spend on employee relations should be equal to the amount of time the trade unions spend? Should it be the same, because all parties are there at the negotiations?
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One point which has not been made is that the time trade unions spend when they act in negotiations to improve employee relations is not just facility time, it is something else—employee relations time. The two things can be quite different. We are surely not going to argue that when all trade union representatives are employed and engaged in improving the quality of public services the trade unions ought to pay for it. That is my first point: it needs to be carefully looked at because it is not a simple equation. Secondly, if we had all the information on facility time which the Bill would allegedly provide, what would that tell us? Would it tell us about: the quality of the negotiations; what was being talked about; whether the time was usefully spent? It will not tell us that at all. It will not give us any—or only crude—information about facility time.
The Civil Service example, which the Minister seems quite pleased about, is a separate case. I do not know anything about Civil Service employee relations. I know a lot about employee relations in the health service and local government and I know that, by and large, they have been extremely good for many years and continue to be so. There are no employers in the health service or local government who want this piece of legislation. In the private sector, the decision about how much facility time is spent is for employers to make. Why is that not the case in the public services? Do we have different standards of quality employee engagement in public and private sectors? Of course we do not: none of us believes that. It is up to the employer to decide on the amount of facility time and to account for the quality of work that comes out of that time. That is where we ought to be heading. The Bill does not take us in that direction. It is a crude,
unnecessary measure and I agree with the speeches made on this side, particularly that by my noble friend Lady Hayter. As somebody who worked in this sector for many years, I can say that it was a great speech: she hit all the right issues and said all the right things.