My Lords, I support the amendment so expertly moved by my noble friend Lady Hayter, and I refer to my entry in the Members’ register in doing so. Listening to my noble friend, I was struck by the chasm between the Bill’s punitive restrictions and the realities of management and industrial relations on the ground. I will refer to two personal experiences in this: one as a Cabinet Minister, the other as a trade unionist.
As Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, with my noble friend, who was a Minister alongside me, I oversaw a budget of £140 billion and a staff of more than 100,000 at the time, in 2007-08. It was very apparent to me and my Permanent Secretary—at the time it was Leigh Lewis, who was very respected, including by me— as well as to his senior managers that facility time for union representatives was often crucial in resolving grievances and local disputes, which otherwise could have got out of hand. Sometimes these grievances resulted from personality clashes, not only from management’s side but from the union or staff side, and union representatives with facility time played an indispensable role. I am absolutely confident, from direct experience of working with the senior managers at the DWP, that union representatives played an indispensable role in resolving matters which would otherwise have escalated and sometimes taken a great deal longer to resolve. There was a network of representatives, known to management as well as to staff members. If something came up, staff could immediately contact the representatives, who would normally be available because of facilities arrangements. On the other hand, if something came up that management was concerned to pre-empt or to resolve, it could contact somebody to sort it out. This is common-sense industrial relations. Again, I am sorry to refer to our previous lives—myself as a Cabinet
Minister and the Minister as a senior manager in an important private-sector organisation dealing directly with trade unions—but she must know that what I am saying is true: facility time helps the smooth running of organisations in the public sector as well as in the private sector.
In the DWP, it was not always plain sailing. We had to deal with the PCS union, and senior managers had their frustrations with that; frankly, sometimes I shared those frustrations. There was the odd abuse—there often is, in all forms of life—but those abuses could be dealt with by the unions and managers concerned. But with trade unions playing the role which they were founded to play, and which their members insist, through accountability mechanisms, they always play—that is, to represent their own staff—I would have thought that managers would welcome facility time, particularly when, as my noble friend Lady Hayter so aptly put it, it should be for management to decide these matters, not for statutory obligations, imposed sometimes through draconian regulations which we have not even seen but which are hinted at in this Bill and look draconian as a result. That seems to be very negative and reactionary indeed. That is the first example.
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The second goes back to my experience as a trade union officer, initially with the Union of Post Office Workers, which I joined in 1976 as a research officer—which is now of course the Communication Workers Union. It was apparent to me then working within the union and subsequently from a parliamentary relationship that union representatives in the Royal Mail and the other organisations that the union represented played an absolutely vital role in promoting industrial stability. The Government seem not to recognise that. Unions are seen in this context as almost subversively irresponsible bodies that have to be whipped into line through draconian legislation instead of organisations that play a vital role in our society in ensuring that we move forward in a progressive manner. The very same union members are delivering a commercially successful outcome in the case of private sector organisations and ensuring in public sector organisations that there is efficient delivery of public services.
The role of union reps is especially important in the Royal Mail, which has such a time-sensitive function and is involved in the delivery of millions of items a day. If disputes happen, that whole process is badly disrupted. I have seen time and again experiences where union reps on the spot, known by all concerned, can resolve matters in the sorting office or other areas where the union is represented. They play a vital role in health and safety work—recognised union reps with the facility time to learn all the legislation and acquire the experience to apply it—to ensure both that employers are protected from action that could otherwise result and that employees are protected. They play a vital role in training and upgrading of skills, which I would have thought the Government would want in the public sector as well as in the private sector. Yes, there are arguments and disputes, but the truth is that 99% of those are resolved with the union representative who has the facility time to resolve them playing a vital role. The other 1% are escalated, but that is life.
I have concentrated on the advantages for employers of facility time, but what about the advantages to and the rights of employees to have proper representation? To be frank, many of them pay their subscriptions and forget about their trade union membership until a problem hits them and then they need someone whom they can go to. This Bill is blowing up out of all proportion some of the concerns that Conservative Ministers may have. The proof of my argument, surely, is to be made in respect of the Royal Mail and British Telecom, both of which contain members and employees that the Communication Workers Union represents. Those very same facility time arrangements that applied under public ownership when they were nationalised industries now apply under privatisation. In other words, these were not subversive arrangements that had to be crushed with a great big anvil in the public sector. They were so sensible that, in the private sector, they were maintained. They made commercial sense and they still make commercial sense, just as they meant public sector efficiency when in the public sector.
A further problem now arises under this legislation. I have looked at the almost Henry VIII provisions under the regulation powers granted by the Bill, particularly in the new Section 172A(9) introduced by Clause 12. This has provoked a whole series of questions for the Minister to consider and answer, if not in reply to this debate then in writing, for which I would be grateful. New Section 172A(9) deals with an issue,
“in relation to a body or other person that is not a public authority but has functions of a public nature and is funded wholly or partly from public funds”.
Let us take the example of the Post Office. It is 100% publicly owned, but it is not clear whether it will be caught by these regulations, as it operates in a commercial sector. It is increasingly a shop-front activity. Crown offices are more often franchised out to the private sector now, as are all sub-post offices, for the delivery of public services that the Post Office is charged with. Would it be affected by these regulations or not? That question should be answered. Will the facility arrangements that apply very successfully to Post Office counters and the Post Office generally be chopped under the Bill, even though some of its services are franchised out?
Then there is the Royal Mail. It is of course now privatised, but it is VAT-exempt for products such as first-class and second-class stamps, parcels and other products that are covered by the universal service obligation. That obligation uniquely applies to Royal Mail compared with competitor mail operators, of which there are many. Does that mean that Royal Mail, despite being privatised, will be caught by the regulations and in particular by new Section 172A(9)? Finally, British Telecom has long been privatised, but its Openreach, which is the part of British Telecom that delivers the engineering connections to people’s homes and private premises, is in receipt of some public funds for the delivery of superfast broadband. Otherwise, it would not have reached all these remote, hard-to-deliver-to areas for broadband. Would it be caught by these regulations or not? These questions point to the Minister reconsidering the whole of these clauses. This draconian attempt to restrict facility time is reactionary and punitive and, I may say, unbecoming of this Minister.