My Lords, I rise to speak to all the amendments in this group, both those in my name and those in the name of my noble friend Lord Purvis.
I was a Minister in the Wales Office when the Assembly’s Agricultural Sector (Wales) Bill started its passage. The purpose of that Bill was the regulation of agricultural wages. At that time, in the Wales Office our advice was simple: this Bill related to employment and industrial relations and was therefore outside the Assembly’s competence. The Welsh Government’s Counsel General argued, however, that it was within competence because it related to the agricultural sector and agriculture is a devolved issue.
In due course, that Bill was referred to the Supreme Court, which decided that it was within the Assembly’s competence because the term “agriculture” meant all aspects and constituent elements of the industry. It accepted that it could also be classified as dealing with employment issues which were non-devolved but the fact that it also related to agriculture brought it within the scope of the Assembly’s power. That is, the Supreme Court took a broad view of devolved competences. In short, given the frequent vagueness of the 2006 Act, the ruling was that, if in doubt, it is to be considered devolved. In that way, the settlement for devolution in Wales turned out to be much broader than the UK Government had assumed it to be and even broader than the Welsh Government had assumed it to be.
I tell this story because it is a very important background to the current situation we have here. It seems to me that the Government have not been listening—either that or they have failed to learn their lesson. Although I might put it rather less emotionally than the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, I say to the Government that they are getting into very deep water on this one because it is bound to be tested legally. I do not know how much the Government have talked to the Welsh Government, but I cannot find any reference to those conversations. I cannot find any reference to discussions. Certainly, the very bulky impact assessment does not seem to refer to anything connected with the impact on the devolved Governments and on the devolved services in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.
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The Welsh Government believe that the Bill touches on devolved issues. On 26 January, my Liberal Democrat Assembly colleagues and Plaid Cymru Assembly Members voted cross-party against allowing the UK Government to legislate for Wales on the issues in Clauses 3, 12, 13 and 14. Will the Minister say how many discussions have taken place with the Welsh Government and what happened as a result of those discussions? Have amendments of any sort been made to the Bill in order to take into account the concerns of the Welsh Government? That deals with the legal side of this.
I now turn briefly to the practicalities. It is well known that the public sectors in England and Wales have diverged. I might not share the rosy view of the health service in Wales expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, but there is no doubt that there has been, and will continue to be, a considerable difference of policy. It is also well known that there is an increasingly
strong Welsh identity as well as an increasingly strong Scottish one, for example. We have Welsh trade unions that do not exist in England, and we have Welsh branches of other trade unions that operate more or less on an independent basis. The BMA is a good example. It operates independently with its own policy and in Wales is not in dispute over the health service, unlike the BMA in England. Therefore, if there are separate trade unions and a separate public sector policy, it is logical to have separate arrangements on relations between employers and trade unions, whether it is the Welsh Government or a body within the devolved competence of the Assembly, such as local government in Wales.
I acknowledge that there will be some complexity. People have put to me the practical issues. What about a member of the PCS who first works in the benefits office in Cardiff and then transfers to work for the Welsh Government on Welsh Government devolved issues? That person would quite possibly be working to one set of trade union ballot rules in the first job and another set in the second job. That is the result of devolution. It is a great deal less complex than trying to impose on an unwilling employer and the unwilling employees a set of rules that have been devised for the situation in England, for services provided overwhelmingly in England or an UK basis and not for the way in which services have been and are increasingly provided in Wales. This is what devolution gives you, and you sometimes have to work with the rough edges.
I say to the Government that, in the view of Liberal Democrats, this Bill is an assault on civil liberties. It is yet another attempt by this Government to create effectively a one-party state in terms of weakening the opposition parties and the opportunities for the opposition to speak its case. What is even more important—to the Government, at the very least—is the fact that the Bill is unconstitutional. They will find that they have set themselves a set of obstacles and a barrier that is very difficult to cross, if they do not listen to the concerns expressed here this evening.