UK Parliament / Open data

Pensions Bill

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Monday, 20 January 2014, in the House of Lords.
Lords committee stage sixth day. Clauses 37 to 52 agreed to, with clauses 38, 49 and 51 agreed to as amended. Schedules 17 and 18 agreed to. Schedule 19 agreed to as amended. Bill reported with amendments (HL Bill 76).

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

751 cc259-318GC 

Session

2013-14

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee
Pensions Bill 2013-14. Brought from the Commons.
Wednesday, 30 October 2013
Bills
House of Lords
Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee thirteenth report.
Wednesday, 20 November 2013
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee sixteenth report.
Thursday, 12 December 2013
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Brougham and Vaux | 751 c259GC (Link to this contribution)

Good afternoon, my Lords. If there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committ...

Baroness Sherlock | 751 c259GC (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Sherlock

62D: Clause 37, page 19, line 22, at end insert—

“(5...


Show all contributions (102)
Baroness Sherlock | 751 cc259-260GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Clause 37 is headed: “Automatic enrolment: powers to create general exceptions”. I am t...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 751 cc260-1GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support my noble friend’s amendment. Auto-enrolment has, initially, clearly been a su...

Lord Bates | 751 cc261-3GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is now two years since the rollout of automatic enrolment began and we are seeing ho...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 751 cc263-4GC (Link to this contribution)

Nobody disagrees that there could be some limited and carefully targeted exclusions in particular...

Baroness Sherlock | 751 c264GC (Link to this contribution)

I have a question to add to that. I am grateful for the Minister’s explanation as to why the Gove...

Lord Bates | 751 c264GC (Link to this contribution)

I will come to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, in the first instance. We have said that there are ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 751 c264GC (Link to this contribution)

I do not want to labour this for too long but it is important that it is clear. As regards the ra...

Lord Bates | 751 c265GC (Link to this contribution)

The short answer is that it is not easy. As the noble Lord will well know, given his experience a...

Baroness Sherlock | 751 c265GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response, but confess that I am still a little uncertain ...

Lord Bates | 751 cc265-7GC (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Bates

62E: After Clause 37, insert the following new Clause—

“Alt...

Lord Bates | 751 c267GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this introduces alternative quality requirements for defined benefits schemes being use...

Lord Bates | 751 c268GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, these amendments allow for two simpler alternative tests for a scheme to demonstrate th...

Baroness Sherlock | 751 c268GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation of these amendments. I have two questions. He ...

Lord Bates | 751 c268GC (Link to this contribution)

I certainly give the noble Baroness the assurance that she rightly seeks with her second question...

Lord Freud | 751 c269GC (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Freud

62F: Clause 38, page 19, line 38, leave out subsection (4) and in...

Lord Browne of Ladyton | 751 c269GC (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Browne of Ladyton

62G: Clause 41, page 21, line 37, at end insert—

<...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 751 cc269-273GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will also speak to Amendment 62H, which is again in my name and that of my noble frie...

Lord Lawson of Blaby | 751 cc272-5GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 63 and 67 in my name, which are linked. I am glad that some ...

Bishop of Chester | 751 c275GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I warmly support both these approaches. Although they are contrasting—the noble Lord, L...

Bishop of Chester | 751 cc275-6GC (Link to this contribution)

I am not used to being interrupted in my perorations, but I was coming to an end. Schedule 17 say...

Lord German | 751 c276GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Browne and Lord Lawson, for raising these issues...

Baroness Donaghy | 751 cc276-7GC (Link to this contribution)

I just want to say a few words about the culture within the financial services companies and how ...

Lord Bates | 751 cc277-8GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this has been a useful debate with lots of high-quality and thoughtful interventions. I...

Lord Browne of Ladyton | 751 c278GC (Link to this contribution)

Before the Minister moves off that point, I am conscious that if the FT report of Friday 17 Janua...

Lord Bates | 751 c278GC (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord was a very experienced Minister and a much more senior one than I will ever be.

Lord Bates | 751 c278GC (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord will therefore know that our position is that we do not comment on speculation in ...

Lord Lawson of Blaby | 751 c279GC (Link to this contribution)

I am glad to hear that Steve Webb will make a statement in another place on this range of issues....

Lord Bates | 751 cc279-280GC (Link to this contribution)

After making deferential remarks to the noble Lord, Lord Browne, I have to make even more deferen...

Lord Browne of Ladyton | 751 cc280-2GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply to this short debate and for the answers he has give...

Lord Lawson of Blaby | 751 c282GC (Link to this contribution)

At what point should I contribute to the discussion on this?

Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 751 c282GC (Link to this contribution)

It will be possible for the noble Lord to speak briefly on his own amendment, Amendment 63. He ha...

Baroness Drake | 751 cc282-3GC (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Drake

62GA: Schedule 17, page 94, line 16, at end insert—

“(c...

Baroness Drake | 751 cc283-5GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendment 62GA is designed to address shortcomings in the governance of pension schemes...

Lord Browne of Ladyton | 751 cc285-7GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I speak to Amendments 67ZB and 67ZC in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Sherloc...

Lord Bates | 751 cc287-9GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, ensuring that schemes deliver good value for, and are run in the best interests of, the...

Lord Browne of Ladyton | 751 c288GC (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I might engage with the Minister on the issue of whether or not larger pension schemes pr...

Baroness Drake | 751 c288GC (Link to this contribution)

I thank my noble friend Lord Browne for his supporting contributions in this debate. I thank the ...

Lord Bates | 751 c288GC (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I can seek some clarification from the noble Baroness on the nature of her question; I ap...

Baroness Drake | 751 c288GC (Link to this contribution)

The Minister has got the sentiment of my point. I was looking for firm clarification that the Bil...

Lord Bates | 751 c288GC (Link to this contribution)

The noble Baroness has a high degree of expertise in this area, which is respected on all sides o...

Baroness Drake | 751 cc290-1GC (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Lord for his offer to write to me on the matter. Maybe having it in writing wil...

Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 751 c291GC (Link to this contribution)

We come to Amendment 63. Lord Lawson of Blaby?

Amendment 63

Lord Lawson of Blaby | 751 c291GC (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Lawson of Blaby

63: After Schedule 17, insert the following new Schedul...

Lord Lawson of Blaby | 751 cc291-2GC (Link to this contribution)

Thank you, Lord Chairman. You advised me that I need to move this amendment, which I am happy to ...

Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 751 c292GC (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord should move the amendment first.

Lord Lawson of Blaby | 751 c292GC (Link to this contribution)

Sorry, I thought I had moved it. I beg to move.

Lord Lawson of Blaby | 751 c292GC (Link to this contribution)

The silence is eloquent and, in the light of it, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Lord Whitty | 751 c292GC (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Whitty

64: Clause 45, page 23, line 37, leave out “sustainable growth” ...

Lord Whitty | 751 cc292-3GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in a Bill of extreme complexity, with a large number of amendments that are equally com...

Baroness Sherlock | 751 cc293-4GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Whitty has explained, the purpose of this amendment is to ensur...

Lord Bates | 751 cc294-5GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this amendment relates to the proposed new objective for the Pensions Regulator. The Pe...

Lord Whitty | 751 cc295-6GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister, at least for his quote from the consultation of the Pens...

Lord Bates | 751 cc296-7GC (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Bates

64A: After Clause 47, insert the following new Clause—

“Pen...

Lord Bates | 751 c297GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the four amendments I will speak to fall into two groups of two. The first two, Amendme...

Baroness Sherlock | 751 c297GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that very helpful explanation of these amendments. He may have...

Lord Bates | 751 c297GC (Link to this contribution)

The answer is that the current provision applies if a scheme is wound up outside the PPF. Schemes...

Lord Bates | 751 c298GC (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Bates

65: After Clause 47, insert the following new Clause—

“Publ...

Lord Bates | 751 cc298-9GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this group of amendments makes a small change to the Public Service Pensions Act 2013 a...

Lord Dubs | 751 c299GC (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Dubs

65A: After Clause 47, insert the following new Clause—

“Rail...

Lord Dubs | 751 cc299-300GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendment 65A is concerned with persons who worked for a company called Jarvis, which w...

Lord Bates | 751 cc300-1GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we have discussed protected persons status previously in relation to the statutory over...

Lord Dubs | 751 c302GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am not totally surprised by the answer but, as I understand it, whatever the Minister...

Lord Browne of Ladyton | 751 c302GC (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Browne of Ladyton

67ZA: After Clause 47, insert the following new Claus...

Lord Browne of Ladyton | 751 cc302-5GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendment 67ZA is in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Sherlock. It proposes the...

Lord Bates | 751 cc305-6GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this Government recognise the importance of supporting individuals in making decisions ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 751 c306GC (Link to this contribution)

That is very helpful from the Minister but, if he is going to do that, he is going to have to loo...

Lord Bates | 751 c306GC (Link to this contribution)

Those points about alternative income requirement are correct but there are a number of reasons, ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 751 c306GC (Link to this contribution)

The Minister may not have understood my point. He was, quite sensibly, making the point—I entirel...

Lord Bates | 751 c307GC (Link to this contribution)

Okay, I have the right answer now: £20,000 is needed for flexible draw-down but not for capped dr...

Bishop of Chester | 751 cc307-8GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, briefly, I listened to the Minister with great interest. I regard the amendment as impo...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 751 c308GC (Link to this contribution)

I will ask another question associated directly with that. To what extent does the Minister expec...

Lord Bates | 751 c308GC (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful for the interventions of the right reverend Prelate and the noble Baroness. The Mon...

Lord Browne of Ladyton | 751 cc308-9GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response. I am disappointed, although not surpris...

Baroness Sherlock | 751 c309GC (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Sherlock

67ZD: After Clause 47, insert the following new Clause—

Baroness Sherlock | 751 cc310-1GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the amendment in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Browne would require the Gove...

Lord Bates | 751 cc311-2GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, for giving me the opportunity to update the ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 751 cc312-3GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I was not going to intervene in this debate but I must challenge something the Minister...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 751 c313GC (Link to this contribution)

I support my noble friend, as that is precisely my recollection too. During a series of meetings ...

Lord Bates | 751 c313GC (Link to this contribution)

These recollections will be there. I take it that it was in the mind of the Government that NEST ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 751 c313GC (Link to this contribution)

Does the Minister have any evidence that NEST—its chair, chief executive or board members—wanted ...

Lord Bates | 751 c313GC (Link to this contribution)

I do not have any information to hand on that. However, we have got the point that I was perhaps ...

Baroness Drake | 751 c313GC (Link to this contribution)

Will the Minister also accept that volumes are critical to the success of NEST and to its charges...

Lord Bates | 751 c313GC (Link to this contribution)

The noble Baroness makes a important point in relation to this and I would not dissent from it. N...

Baroness Sherlock | 751 c313GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all my noble friends who have contributed to the debate and am grateful to the ...

Lord Freud | 751 c314GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I think confusion may have arisen between the discussions that the previous Labour Gove...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 751 c314GC (Link to this contribution)

I look forward to the letter and its contents in due course. We were relaying the origins of NEST...

Baroness Sherlock | 751 c314GC (Link to this contribution)

I thank my noble friend for that. First, I am disappointed that the Government decided to go ahea...

Lord Bates | 751 cc314-5GC (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Bates

67A: Schedule 19, page 99, leave out lines 6 to 10

67B: Sch...

Lord Bates | 751 c315GC (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Bates

68: Clause 49, page 24, line 32, leave out paragraph (a) and inse...

Lord Bates | 751 cc316-7GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in moving Amendment 68, I will also speak to the other amendments in this group. Govern...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 751 c317GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, if Amendment 68 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 68ZA by reason of pre-emption.

Lord Browne of Ladyton | 751 c317GC (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I speak to government Amendments 68 and 69, and to Amendment 68ZA, for what that is now...

Lord Bates | 751 c318GC (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Bates

69: Clause 49, page 24, line 33, leave out “or 20”

70: Clau...

Lord Bates | 751 c318GC (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Bates

72: Clause 51, page 25, line 20, leave out subsection (2)

7...

Legislation

Pensions Bill 2013-14
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