My Lords, I again declare my interest as chairman of the climate change committee, which has a specific responsibility to consider and concern itself with fuel poverty. It would be suitable for me to say a few words about this. I am very pleased that the Government have brought forward this amendment, not least because one of the difficulties of advising on fuel poverty has been the very peculiar mechanisms that we have used to measure it. To be able to measure it more effectively, to have a proper and accepted basis, will help us very much in giving advice. As noble Lords know, if you are a scientifically based committee, it is quite hard to move from making decisions on science, which is of course what we do, to making decisions on measurements that would not stand up to any kind of consideration from outside. This is a very good first step. All of us acknowledge the fact that there is widespread support for the principle but there is a lot to be worked through. I think most of us would agree with what the noble Lord who just spoke said.
It is worth realising, too, that it has much wider implications. As usual, we have been very much helped by the intervention of my noble friend Lord Jenkin. I am always amazed that he gets his head so easily around the most complex of issues and then lightly dismisses that by saying that he is not quite there yet.
If when I get to the same stage of life, I am “there”—if I may put it so—as well as he is, I shall be very proud indeed. We owe him a huge debt of gratitude.
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I want to emphasise the point he raised about the national grid, not because I want to avoid the issue of fuel poverty, but to remind the Government of the absolute necessity of certainty when it comes to investment. When the Government change—or appear to change—the basis upon which investors have invested, it has a knock-on effect on all other investment. I would say that, wouldn’t I? It is a very important issue, however, because we know that if we are to have the long-term investment, supply-chain investment and all the rest of it, certainty is crucial. I hope the Government will take very seriously the issue raised by my noble friend Lord Jenkin, because its knock-on effects are considerable.
My second concern is that whatever happens here has a much wider effect, not just on the investment basis, but because of the argumentation that we have elsewhere. The climate change committee has welcomed the possibility of our being able to frack for gas; we have made it clear in our prognostications, targets and budgets, that there is a proper place for gas in the portfolio of energy sources, not least for those who are off-line and will need gas delivered to them. That is another area. What the Government do in this part will therefore have an important influence. I am always concerned about those who think that there is a silver bullet; when I hear people talk about fracking, I want to say to them that I am in favour of it but, for goodness’ sake, we should not assume the best and that everything will be wonderful. There will be a place for it, but we need to look at how far it will help us as regards fuel poverty.
My noble friend Lord Jenkin said how pleased he was that in this amendment the Government keep saying that the “Secretary of State must”. I cannot help reminding the Minister that there is another area where it says the “Secretary of State may”, which is as important, if not more so, than some of the areas that we have here. We would be happier if “must” were more widely used and not restricted to these particular amendments. I have to say to the Minister that this is not an issue that I will allow to fall. It is made more important by this proposal because it shows that, when the Government want to ensure that certain things happen, they phrase a proposal one way and, when they are less sure that they want certain things to happen, they phrase it another. I hope that my noble friend will understand that this is another piece of evidence in favour of the kind of amendment that was put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, when he so brilliantly introduced the question of a carbon-intensity target.
Furthermore, it is important to apply our knowledge and understanding of connection to the national grid to the rural areas of Britain. One of my worries about the discussion of fuel poverty is that, because of the numbers, it is concentrated in our urban areas. The noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, referred to her own background in Coatdyke, which I understand, but I remind the Committee that some of the worst fuel
poverty in Britain comes thatched. That is why it is ignored—it seems somehow or other part of the wonderful, rural idyll in which we live.
I come from a very rural area. I represented it for a very long time, during which there was little improvement in fuel poverty. People lived in sub-standard housing bought by their parents before the war at practically no cost. Such housing is hugely valuable for incoming Londoners to turn into a country cottage, but as a place to live—at the end of a track with no possibility of getting meals-on-wheels and the rest—it is where you find some of the worst fuel poverty in Britain, and the most overlooked.
I hope my noble friend will understand that I shall be taking a great deal of interest in such people. Just because they are fewer in number, and outside the mainstream, does not mean they should be ignored. Thatch is no substitute for warmth when it comes to the winters you get in the east of England, when the wind blows directly from Siberia. Quite a few people living in that area come from Scotland, and they remind us that it is a darn sight colder in the east of England than in a lot of Scotland. However people do not remember that. So I hope my noble friend will take the rural issue into account. I finish by saying that I believe in common sense too, and we have to get our minds more effectively around some of the simple things that can be done to help people who may not be capable of knowing about them.