I start by joining the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) in paying tribute to the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) and his work to expose the tragedy at Hillsborough. I also pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, who instigated the coroner’s inquiry and made sure we had the inquest. Had it not been for her work, we would not be here today with the unlawful killing judgment that we are all grateful for.
I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the Committee was good natured. There was a great deal of agreement and consensus, and where there was agreement—and even where there was not—the debate was good natured. I must, however, take issue with some of his points. We had a bit of a debate during his contribution about crime, but the figures are clear: since 2010, crime has fallen. He is right, however, that reported crime is up, and that is good news. We want victims to come forward and we want the police to believe them. We want to ensure that when a crime has been committed, it is reported and recorded, so that we have the best possible chance of catching the criminal and bringing them to justice.
The hon. Gentleman talked about the changing face of crime and seemed to imply that the Bill had failed. I hope he will acknowledge that the Investigatory Powers Bill, currently in Committee, deals with many of his
points about the changing face of crime. He is right that there are new ways criminals can attack us and get to us.
Before the internet, a criminal simply could not get to somebody sitting in Leek, in Staffordshire Moorlands, or to Joe and Josephine Soap in the Dog and Duck in Erdington, who we have heard much about in our debates. They could simply not get to those people from places such as the far east, eastern Europe and so forth. Now, thanks to the internet, they can. The internet has provided a great opportunity, but it also means that criminals have access to that opportunity. I believe that the Investigatory Powers Bill being debated upstairs addresses many of the points that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington raised.
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I would like to pick up on a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach) about police and crime commissioners. I was in Cheshire last week with John Dwyer, who has done fantastic work in that county. Likewise, my own PCC, Matthew Ellis in Staffordshire, has maintained front-line warranted officers. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Amanda Milling) mentioned in the earlier debate, he has also introduced new ways of policing, including using electronic communication, to address precisely the points that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington made about the changing face of crime. Good Conservative PCCs absolutely deliver and make sure that policing is exactly as their communities need.
I am conscious of the time, so I am going to ensure that I comment first on the newly tabled amendments. We have already debated many amendments on similar themes at length in Committee, and I will touch on them if I have the time, but I hope Members will understand why I shall focus my initial comments on the new amendments tabled today.
New clause 1 was proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes). It goes without saying that I share his concerns about inappropriate knife sales, and we absolutely need to make sure that the law—it is very clear that it is illegal to sell knives to under-18s—is upheld and enforced, and that retailers and others understand that law. My hon. Friend knows that we have had extensive discussions of the matter and that we are taking steps to make sure that the law is known, that retailers are made aware of it and that we strengthen our response to knife crime. In February this year, for example, we supported 13 police forces in co-ordinated action against knife crime. This involved targeting habitual knife carriers, weapon sweeps, test purchases of knives from identified retailers and the use of surrender bins.
On 23 March this year, we published the modern crime prevention strategy, which sets out a range of measures to strengthen our response to knife crime, including working with the police and industry to ensure there are effective controls on the sale of knives and other offensive weapons; identifying and spreading best practice; delivering measures designed to deter young people from carrying knives; and introducing secondary legislation to ban the sale and importation of “zombie-killer knives” that glamorise violence. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington mentioned the PCC David Jamieson in that context, and I pay tribute to this Labour PCC for the work he has done.
We have also agreed a set of principles with major retailers, including with Amazon and eBay, to prevent under-age sales of knives in stores and, very importantly, online. The agreement builds on the round table with major retailers, which was chaired by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary last month to encourage them to sell knives more responsibly.
It is crucial to realise that the current law is very clear: a retailer commits an offence if they sell knives to a person under 18. Retailers are required to take “reasonable precautions” and exercise “due diligence” to prevent such sales. That is why we worked with retailers to ensure that an appropriate code of practice looks not just for age verification at the point of sale. It is right that age verification is not just ticking a box for someone to say that they are aged 18. We mean proper and appropriate age verification, very much like that on which we have been consulting in respect of access to pornography for under-18s. We expect appropriate, online age verification there, too, and not merely a tick box for somebody to say that they are 18. We need to know that appropriate software or other age-verification techniques are being used. These are used by the gambling industry and across the world.
We have that agreement from the retailers, but also crucial is verification at the point of delivery. It is not good enough simply to verify that the purchaser is aged over 18; there must be confirmation and verification at the point of delivery. That means that many retailers—Tesco and Argos, for example—will not deliver a knife to anybody. They insist that the person must go and collect the knife from the store so that they can determine that he or she is over 18, and has appropriate verification.
The law is clear, and the new code of practice is clear. I want to give an agreement that is not even a month old a chance to work, but I also think that we should bear in mind what my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate said about prosecutions. We need to know that, if a prosecution is brought, the courts will have the weapons that they need to secure a successful conviction. I shall be happy to work with colleagues in the Ministry of Justice, including my right hon. Friend the Minister for Policing, Fire, Criminal Justice and Victims, who is sitting next to me. We also need to bear in mind what my hon. Friend said about whether we need to take any action on the supply and delivery of knives.