I agree with my hon. Friend. Let me mention one of the best examples I know of a police and crime commissioner taking a different approach. I met the police and crime commissioner for Cumbria shortly after he was elected. He had previously been headmaster of a Lancashire school. He said, “Do you know that there is no rape crisis centre in Cumbria? That is absolutely disgraceful for a police area of this size.” He took some of his PCC budget that was meant to be spent on administration and set up a rape crisis centre. I think that shows just how police and crime commissioners who really care about their areas—it is nothing to do with politics—can make a huge different to policing. When he was elected he said, “This is one of the things that I am going to change, because it is a disgrace that Cumbria does not have one.” In fact, he changed that within 18 months of the election. As a result of such actions, the recognition and popularity of police and crime commissioners has grown, and I believe that the same will happen with police and fire commissioners.
We all have immense respect for police officers and fire officers, but we accept that they do very different jobs. The public often see them working together and co-operating—for example, at the scene of an accident—but the idea of those two separate services having a common leadership will take longer for the public to understand. That is why I believe amendment 2 is absolutely necessary to improve an otherwise excellent Bill.
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Everyone will have their own idea about the name that the Secretary of State should give to a police and crime commissioner who takes on responsibility for fire, should this amendment be made—whether fire and crime, or policing and crime and fire—but we probably all agree that it is imperative that we preserve a nationally recognised brand for the office. One of the successes of the police and crime commissioners is that this time, second time around, it is a national election with a recognised office. It might not be discussed in the Dog and Duck in Erdington or in Rossendale and Darwen, but people will talk about PCCs and the work they do, especially as they take on new responsibilities. It is quite centrist to say, “The Secretary of State shall direct a PCC about what he or she may be called in future,” but I think that a nationally recognised label will reflect the national nature of the legislation.
I also note that the Secretary of State would have the power at some point in the future to come up with the name of a police and crime commissioner who had
also taken on responsibility for fire. I hope that the Secretary of State and her officials would have a detailed consultation with the fire service to find out what would be an acceptable name, because I share the concern, which has been expressed across the House, about police services and fire services having a different nature. The fire service does not want to be brought into police work, and I am sure that the police do not want to be brought into the fire service. I think that they are needlessly nervous, but having a long consultation period with the fire service would give them comfort.
I think that our fire services probably perceive the Bill as bringing the biggest change and the biggest risk. I think that the change and the risk are minimal, but that is how they perceive it. As with all change, I think it is in fact the fear of change, rather than the change itself, that is concerning them. If the proposal is accepted, it is absolutely essential that the new name for a police and crime commissioner with the added responsibility of a fire commissioner keeps front and centre the operational independence of both our fire services and our police services. Nobody is suggesting that the day after the Bill receives Royal Assent a police officer will be sent out with a bucket and told to quench a fire, or that a fire officer would ever be expected to go out and feel the collar of a local criminal; they must retain their operational independence.
In short, I think that this proposal gives the Secretary of State the power to make a clear name change to ensure that at the next national elections people will understand that they are voting for a combined role of police and crime commissioner and fire commissioner. However, that title must cement in their minds the fact that although those roles have a combined leadership, they remain absolutely separate and their operational independence is protected under the Bill.