NHS (Charitable Trusts Etc) Bill

I want to focus on amendments 4, 5 and 6, which stand in my name and that of my hon. Friend the M...

Does my hon. Friend have any idea of the costs associated with the consultation? While the princi...

My hon. Friend makes a sound point: one must always balance the benefit and the cost. I do not ha...

Will my hon. Friend explain what he means by “appropriate”? Does it mean the Secretary of State s...

I shall turn to what I mean by “appropriate” in due course, but I think hon. Members on both side...

In my mediocre experience in local government I have participated in a huge number of Government ...

I certainly would not agree that my hon. Friend’s experience is mediocre—quite the opposite. I un...

May I repeat a question already asked: who would finance the public consultations? Would it be th...

The point about cost is important. At the end of the day it would have to come from taxpayers, wh...

What is my hon. Friend’s estimate of the consultations’ cost to the taxpayer? Has he done any ana...

Again, I do not have those figures to hand. My hon. Friend is right to raise this because it is a...

Cost is important, but the transparency angle outweighs it.

My hon. Friend, who has put her name to these amendments, makes a valid point, and helps me make ...

My hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire (Kit Malthouse), a far from mediocre figure in...

I think Mr Speaker would agree that these are not his amendments, but are my amendments. I unders...

Who will the consultation be with? Will it be with other charities, hospital users, people who ha...

I envisage the consultation being as wide as possible. My hon. Friend mentions everyone who has b...

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way; he is being incredibly generous in taking interventions. E...

I understand that point, which is similar to other points questioning the benefit and the cost, b...

My hon. Friend rightly points out that my private Member’s Bill emerged as a result of consultati...

Again, I am grateful for the intervention and understand the point being made, but I disagree wit...

I completely agree with my hon. Friend that most of us would support adequate public consultation...

Once again, I am grateful for the intervention, but, with respect, may I say that my hon. Friend ...

Is my hon. Friend indicating that local authorities would have to bear the cost?

Again, with respect to my hon. Friend, may I say that she is repeating a point she made before? I...

Order. I gently exhort the hon. Gentleman to consider the merits of moving on to one or other of ...

I am very grateful for that guidance, Mr Speaker.

I remind my hon. Friend that he said he would explain what the word “appropriate” meant in this c...

That would be entirely orderly and would involve no repetition. The hon. Member for North East So...

In which case, let me turn to that very point. As my hon. Friend rightly says, my amendment 4 con...

The word “appropriate” also relates to the level of the thing to be consulted upon. We have a tra...

I am very grateful for that helpful intervention. I would wish to expand on the issue of an EU re...

We have discussed the use of the word “appropriate”. Does my hon. Friend feel that these two amen...

I am grateful for that intervention, but my view is that in this case it is unnecessary to use th...

I had not intended to follow on so quickly, Mr Speaker, as I thought there would be a great rush ...

Does my hon. Friend envisage any de minimis provision whatsoever? Should everything come before t...

If primary legislation is being changed the default position should be that it can be changed onl...

My hon. Friend says that this is being slipped in, but surely now, today, we have the opportunity...

That is absolutely right, but I think that slipped in is a perfectly fair phrase on Fridays, beca...

Order. If the hon. Gentleman himself has ever been fashionable, which is in itself extremely doub...

Mr Speaker, as always, you are correct. I think that I would take being called fashionable as a g...

Moving away from the dangers of fashion back to the substance of what we should be debating, will...

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, but I am afraid that I think that most pub...

Does my hon. Friend agree that our constituents would look on agog at a Bill designed to simplify...

My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head. That is the problem with this endless consultation; not...

May I ask my hon. Friend to consider this point? He mentioned the word “appropriate”. Nowhere doe...

I raised the question of what the word “appropriate” meant earlier and I was indeed intending to ...

My hon. Friend is giving us the benefit of his usual style of speech—[Interruption.] Of fashionab...

I agree with my hon. Friend. I want to finish on this set of amendments by saying that this House...

I agree with my hon. Friend’s argument. That could happen to any charity, not just an NHS charity...

My hon. Friend makes an interesting and important point. NHS charities are different because of t...

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. He is generous with his time, as always. He talks about NH...

My hon. Friend ignores the starting point, which is that the Secretary of State makes the appoint...

Will my hon. Friend give way?

Of course I give way to the promoter of the Bill.

I am grateful. The Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Bill is proceeding through this H...

I suppose the answer is “Up to a point, Lord Copper.” The Charity Commission has marvellous and a...

I agree with the gist of what my hon. Friend is saying, but does he agree that if that power exis...

No, I cannot follow the logic of that argument. I do not think charities will be more likely or l...

My hon. Friend misunderstood me. I was not for one moment suggesting that a board may be encourag...

I quibble about the word “rescue”. It is not so much rescue as fire. If the trustees do things ba...

I am listening to the points being made, but I am still struggling to understand why a handful of...

I reiterate—I am sorry, Mr Speaker, to reiterate. I may be becoming repetitive, but I hope not ye...

We have had a lot of debate about the term “appropriate”. What exactly does my hon. Friend mean b...

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for trying to out-pedant me, which is a great thing to do, and sh...

I challenge my hon. Friend on that remark. Surely it is not public money but charitable money. It...

I go back to what I said earlier about where NHS charities sit. By virtue of the money being give...

Does my hon. Friend agree that some of his comments strike against the heart of this Bill, which ...

What a pleasure it is to see you taking the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. We have been waiting for...

Does my hon. Friend not agree that the entire point of the Bill is to dissociate the charities fr...

As I said, it is a question is how we get to where we are going from where we are starting. As we...

Does my hon. Friend not agree, though, that funds donated to the NHS and put into these charities...

Order. I am trying to be helpful to the hon. Lady in saying that I know it is a great temptation ...

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is wonderful just to be able to imagine my hon. Friend in my ...

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This has been a very distracting interlude, I must confess.

Does my hon. Friend agree that my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton) g...

My hon. Friend puts it extremely well. That confusion is almost inevitable. In the case of charit...

I am desperately trying not to look at my hon. Friend; I will try to imagine him. He is being typ...

My hon. Friend’s kindness towards the Comptroller and Auditor General is, I am sure, noted in man...

The primary aim of this Bill is to make very clear that the charities are independent of the Gove...

My hon. Friend is absolutely wrong. He has misunderstood, misconstrued and possibly even misread ...

Is my hon. Friend not at risk of falling foul of his own test? He criticised my amendment’s use o...

Of course not. “May” is a very precise word: it is an allowing factor and it gives permission to ...

I was halfway to asking whether my hon. Friend would give way, so I am glad that he has invited m...

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving me the opportunity to clarify that. I think that the S...

Will my hon. Friend give way?

I was about to finish, but yes I will give way.

I was in the Tea Room and heard that a very fashionable Member was making a speech, so I thought ...

My hon. Friend has been caught up in this idea of fashion, and I am afraid that he speaks of yest...

Madam Deputy Speaker, I promise that this will be my last intervention on my hon. Friend. To retu...

I am not sure that those are the circumstances under which the Secretary of State would use his d...

I rise to speak to amendments 1, 3 and 2, which—inexplicably, given their strength—stand in my na...

My hon. Friend takes me back to my time as a student in Paris 20 years ago, when I was very grate...

I assume that my hon. Friend was not a shareholder of Marks & Spencer at the time. For those of u...

I agree with my hon. Friend. Was not one of the most profound and surprising examples of that, th...

My hon. Friend makes a remarkably good point. For Members of this House, that is a very pertinent...

Will my hon. Friend give way?

Yes. Sorry, I should have said “flock”, not “herd”.

That was exactly my point.

I thought so. I am grateful to the hon. Member for pedantry, who is right.

This is one of t...

My hon. Friend is referring to the charitable sector, which has billions of pounds of assets and ...

No, I am not tarring them with the same brush. I am saying that all boards—commercial, charitable...

My hon. Friend will be aware that a good board contains non-executive directors to fulfil that ch...

The truth is that non-executives are technically appointed by the shareholders, so they are appoi...

My hon. Friend clearly feels passionately on this matter, but he paints a bleak picture of a nati...

No, I do not lack confidence in people’s independence of mind. I have great admiration for my hon...

My hon. Friend might not have been in the Chamber the other night for the debate on banking regul...

Yes. I am trying to get to a position where we can have confidence in the governance of charities...

My hon. Friend has cited one charity as an example, but does he have any recent information about...

I do not, and the reason is that the Secretary of State currently has control of the appointment ...

My hon. Friend is being very generous in taking interventions. I want to get to the nub of his am...

I hesitate to be repetitive, but the truth is that these charities are different. Let me give a p...

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. He is giving an excellent pitch to be the Health Secretary...

The truth is that there have not been adequate safeguards in charity law, as my hon. Friend will ...

My hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble (Seema Kennedy) pre-empted me. One might think that th...

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. I recommend to the House his book, which is filled with e...

Fifteen years.

Fifteen years on the Public Accounts Committee—extraordinary! I therefore take his words seriousl...

My hon. Friend’s amendments would undermine the whole purpose of the Bill, which is to give these...

I acknowledge that point, but we have been round this carousel a couple of times. I pose just one...

I support my hon. Friend’s amendment because it is an emergency provision that would be rarely us...

My hon. Friend is right. Proposed subsection (2B) in amendment 1 provides that the Secretary of S...

My hon. Friend is generous with his time. In my constituency, Torbay Hospital League of Friends h...

My hon. Friend is a dog with a bone. As I have explained—I think five times—I believe that the ch...

I apologise to my hon. Friend: I rise not to support his amendment, but to oppose it, particularl...

I have the utmost respect for my hon. Friend, but that was a slightly odd intervention, given tha...

I take exception to the point about the Bill taking up the House’s time. It covers not only Great...

My hon. Friend makes a mistake. I did not object to the time; my hon. Friend the Member for Horsh...

Will my hon. Friend confirm that, when he said that the Bill relates to a single NHS charity, he ...

My hon. Friend is right. I correct myself. One clause relates to Great Ormond Street and the rest...

Will my hon. Friend give way?

No, I would like to move on to amendment 2. I am conscious that others wish to speak.

Amend...

On the point about making these appointments, it would be helpful if my hon. Friend clarified to ...

I am sorry, but I am actually talking about amendment 3, not amendment 2. I am getting myself con...

My hon. Friend is making some valid points. Does he agree that instead of a laser focus on the nu...

My hon. Friend is right, and anyone who is putting together a board of trustees wants to ensure t...

My hon. Friend paints a very dangerous picture. He was referring to circumstances in which a char...

That may be so, but—I hesitate to stress this point again—in my view these charities are differen...

My hon. Friend raises a point about charities going off and lobbying. Does he feel that enough sa...

This is a difficult area. Some charities are composed in such a way that their entire purpose is ...

I apologise to the House for being repetitive, but my hon. Friend has a vision of doom for the tr...

I apologise if that is a vision of doom, but much of our life in this House involves dealing with...

In these hopefully extremely unusual circumstances, does my hon. Friend envisage that, once again...

I do not think that I have attached that requirement to this straight appointment. If there are n...

My hon. Friend is generous in allowing interventions. Barely 150 years ago we abandoned press-gan...

That is exactly what I am proposing. If there are no trustees for three months, the Secretary of ...

I need to challenge my hon. Friend on the assumption of “Who else better than the Secretary of St...

My hon. Friend will make a great diplomat when the time comes. I agree there is the possibility o...

I will make this my last intervention. My hon. Friend has been very generous. With the provisions...

Many years ago, my mother and father went on a camping trip in Europe. On their first night, they...

Is my hon. Friend not being, once again, overly pessimistic this morning? Does he not recognise t...

No, I am not being pessimistic. I am, I hope, exhorting a message of confidence and optimism that...

My hon. Friend mentions his experience in previous roles of engaging in unnecessary and lengthy c...

I cannot give my hon. Friend an exact figure, but it is enormous. Many, many hundreds of millions...

Order. I did not want to interrupt the excellent flow of the hon. Gentleman’s argument, but, for ...

As the Bill’s promoter, I rise to contribute to its Report stage.

We have listened to some ...

I do not know whether my hon. Friend plans to mention the special care baby unit at Royal Derby h...

I agree wholeheartedly, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for sharing with us the example of a ...

I am reminded of my family’s frequent trips to Disneyland Paris when my three children were much ...

Absolutely. I hope not to be pushed out to sea either, but that remains to be seen. I sincerely b...

Does my hon. Friend not recognise the central thrust of my argument—that the Bill itself was the ...

My hon. Friend is correct that my Bill is the result of public consultation, as I will expand upo...

In the light of what my hon. Friend has said, are not some of the amendments completely unnecessa...

Absolutely. As I am explaining, the amendments, worthy of consideration though they be, are not n...

My hon. Friend may be aware that the Public Accounts Committee recently considered a report on th...

My hon. Friend raises an interesting point. The key point of my private Member’s Bill is to enabl...

I am delighted to speak in support of this important Bill on Report and congratulate my hon. Frie...

My hon. Friend is making a very good point. Members may have seen a report in today’s Times about...

I entirely agree. That is exactly why I feel that they need to be independent from Secretaries of...

I am conscious of the time, so I shall be careful not to be either repetitive or irrelevant, and ...

With individual consultations as well, there is no guarantee we are going to reach everyone. I re...

My hon. Friend makes excellent points about the difficulties in reaching everyone. In the consult...

Does my hon. Friend therefore agree that these amendments on trustees, which seek to re-establish...

My hon. Friend is right in what she says. The whole point of the Bill is to free these charities ...

We could extend that point even further. A lot of the surgeries in my constituency have “friends ...

I thank my hon. Friend for that good point. Once we start on the principle of these changes, wher...

My hon. Friend is making a strong, clear point. In my constituency, Edenbridge hospital has a lea...

My hon. Friend makes the excellent point that many people will see a league of friends at a local...

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster). Like him, I am a ...

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for not being quite so cynical about public consultations as othe...

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for clarifying his views. I have no problem with paying for consu...

My hon. Friend has made some excellent points. Does he agree that the point of the Bill is to mak...

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s knowledge of pantomimes. No doubt Captain Hook is in there som...

Does my hon. Friend agree that if we are trying to increase the public’s confidence in these char...

The Comptroller and Auditor General already has a very valuable role, and I would not wish to pla...

I congratulate the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton) on bringing her Bill throug...

Will the hon. Lady give way?

No, because I want to keep my comments short, as I say. As we have heard, funding from NHS charit...

What a fascinating morning this has been. I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member f...

I am grateful to the Minister for mentioning the thoroughness of this debate. Does she agree that...

That is probably a helpful thing to put on the record. All Members have to use their time wisely ...

Does my hon. Friend agree that NHS charities helping to put defibrillators in public places are d...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Several hon. Members have mentioned charities in their area t...

I am interested to hear the Minister’s remarks. Given the slightly negative perceptions of charit...

My hon. Friend is exactly right. At times, the debate has moved into rather gloomy territory. He ...

On that note, may I draw to the Minister’s attention one charity in my constituency? Like my hon....

How nice it is to hear about that charity. I congratulate my hon. Friend on taking the opportunit...

I cannot lay claim to any characters in my constituency. It is not just the work that charities d...

I am delighted to add my praise for my hon. Friend’s charity. I was honoured after the election t...

Will the Minister give way?

I will; it is only fair.

By no means was I trying to give the impression that charity workers and trustees across the UK a...

That is a helpful note of clarification. I sense we all felt that beneath the Private Frazer amen...

I am grateful for the Minister’s reassurance, and I am more than happy to accept it.

I thank my hon. Friend. It gives me great pleasure, as a Minister at the Dispatch Box, to receive...

May I ask the Minister about one further point? When the NHS logo is licensed to small charities,...

My hon. Friend is wholly consistent on this issue. Since he came here in 2010, I have been deligh...

My hon. Friend has twice referred in her speech to defibrillators and the money that the Chancell...

My hon. Friend has effectively just undertaken such an act of lobbying. The take-up of this fund ...

May I encourage the Minister to continue her lobbying efforts in that regard? In my area, the wes...

rose—

Order. Before the Minister responds, I should point out that the subject of defibrillators is som...

I am sure we all recognise the truth of your judgment, Madam Deputy Speaker, but the example was ...

In the light of the reassurances that have been given, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendme...

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

Let me begin by thanking Members w...

My hon. Friend mentions that NHS charities are bound by charity law as well as other legislation....

My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. I also sat on the charities Bill Committee, and it com...

As we have heard, this Bill will improve the independence of NHS charitable trusts, and I am plea...

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton) on choosing to in...

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton) on getting this v...

It is a delight to be called to speak in this Third Reading debate. I will keep my remarks relati...

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton) and commend her...

I will be as brief as possible, Madam Deputy Speaker. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member fo...

We have had a productive debate on this Bill. I thank hon. Members from both sides of the House f...