UK Parliament / Open data

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate on bills on Tuesday, 6 March 2012, in the House of Lords.
Health and Social Care Bill. Lords report stage fifth day.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

735 c1669-770 

Session

2010-12

Department

Department of Health

Legislative stage

Report stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Related items

Health and Social Care Bill. As amended in committee. In two volumes.
Wednesday, 21 December 2011
Bills
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2012-0461
Monday, 12 March 2012
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Constitution Select Committee (HL) eighteenth report on the Health and Social Care Bill.
Wednesday, 14 September 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Constitution Select Committee (HL) twenty-second report on the Health and Social Care Bill: Follow-up report.
Wednesday, 14 December 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Baroness Murphy | 735 c1673-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, is having us on. There is an urgent need to pres...
Lord Skelmersdale | 735 c1673 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the House seems to have gone remarkably silent after those two introductory supporters of ...

Show all contributions (147)
Baroness Pitkeathley | 735 c1672-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was delighted to add my name to this important amendment which builds on several amendme...
Lord Patel | 735 c1676 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not know whether the Bill is adequate for its intention. I did not think for one minu...
Lord Beecham | 735 c1675-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on bringing forward the amendment, to which there seem to b...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 735 c1674-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to raise the matter of the process of putting in statute what in the ordinary...
Baroness Barker | 735 c1674 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Warner, asked what was to disagree with—what was not to like—and the answer is ...
Earl Howe | 735 c1678 (Link to this contribution) I will give way but we are on Report.
Earl Howe | 735 c1676-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been a thoughtful debate. At the outset, it is appropriate for me to pay tribute ...
Baroness Thornton | 735 c1697-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a large group of amendments led by our amendment. In fact, we have only two amendm...
Baroness Thornton | 735 c1697 (Link to this contribution) 163BA:Clause 60, page 87, line 31, at end insert— ““(c) is to continue as regulator of NHS Foundatio...
Baroness Thornton | 735 c1697 (Link to this contribution) I was not actually attacking the noble Lord; I was just speculating about what might happen. I feel ...
Baroness Thornton | 735 c1697 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has a very legalistic manner of addressing the House. Of course ...
Lord Clement-Jones | 735 c1697 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting the noble Baroness, but does she realise that the more she attacks us, ...
Lord Clement-Jones | 735 c1697 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may intervene. Has the noble Baroness received legal advice on the benefits of a...
Earl Howe | 735 c1692 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend. He very well encapsulated in his speech the issues that we are loo...
Lord Clement-Jones | 735 c1692-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, clearly I have the Floor. I thought that I had it after the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton,...
Lord Clement-Jones | 735 c1692 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, is the Minister aware that many of us will welcome the statement he made? It was very comp...
Baroness Thornton | 735 c1692 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, has the noble Earl actually read the amendment? Paragraph 6(c) says, "““the need to commis...
Baroness Thornton | 735 c1689 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Earl for allowing me briefly to intervene. He has given some useful and selective ...
Earl Howe | 735 c1689-92 (Link to this contribution) I think that the noble Baroness and I agree that cherry picking is highly undesirable, which is why ...
Baroness Thornton | 735 c1682-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, at last we come to the heart of the Health and Social Care Bill—Part 3. On 3 March, David ...
Lord Clement-Jones | 735 c1685 (Link to this contribution) 163BZZB:Line 6, after ““functions”” insert ““in accordance with the provisions of Article 106 of the...
Lord Clement-Jones | 735 c1685-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move Amendment 163BZZB. I am delighted at the response of the noble Baroness, Lad...
Baroness Meacher | 735 c1678 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for intervening but I wonder whether it might be relevant to change the Title of the Bil...
Earl Howe | 735 c1678 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness may not have been following all our debates as closely as some, given that we hav...
Baroness Thornton | 735 c1682 (Link to this contribution) 163BZZA:Before Clause 60, insert the following new Clause— ““CHAPTER A1 Principles of regulations of...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 735 c1714 (Link to this contribution) What instances are there of when collaboration has not resulted in improved patient outcomes? I have...
Earl Howe | 735 c1714 (Link to this contribution) No. Collaboration, if it is in the interest of patients, will always trump competition.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 735 c1714 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down, will he answer a straightforward question in relation to my amendment...
Earl Howe | 735 c1712-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is a concern that I understand. The destabilisation of the NHS will naturally be a conc...
Baroness Wall of New Barnet | 735 c1709 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may contribute to the debate solely on the comments that have just been made by my noble f...
Lord Turnberg | 735 c1709 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder whether I could comment on that. It depends on the timescale between admissions. ...
Lord Adebowale | 735 c1707-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had not planned to speak in this debate but, having heard the contributions of many nobl...
Lord Turnberg | 735 c1708-9 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak in support of Amendment 165 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff...
Baroness Meacher | 735 c1712 (Link to this contribution) Lower prices may be determined for simpler procedures, but this matter is far more complicated than ...
Baroness Murphy | 735 c1709-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a disparate group of amendments. I support the principles that underline Amendment...
Baroness Meacher | 735 c1706-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise with some trepidation, not having been involved in Committee on this Bill but havin...
Baroness Meacher | 735 c1707 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention. I was trying to conflate a number of points. T...
Lord Ribeiro | 735 c1707 (Link to this contribution) For clarification, perhaps the noble Baroness would say whether we are dealing with apples and pears...
Lord Warner | 735 c1699 (Link to this contribution) I speak to Amendment 164 in my name, which is in this group. It returns to the issue I raised in Com...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 735 c1699-701 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have two amendments in this group, Amendments 163C and 166B, which also stand in the nam...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 735 c1701-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have Amendment 165 in this group. It is designed to prevent anti-collaborative behaviour...
Baroness Cumberlege | 735 c1703-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, tabled an amendment in this group. Before I speak to it, I will say that I very mu...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 735 c1704-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will briefly speak to Amendment 167 in this group, which has been tabled in the name of ...
Baroness Barker | 735 c1705 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Walton, will be aware of many occasions in this house—when the noble ...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 735 c1705 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do indeed recall the debates that we had during one of the many health and social care B...
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 735 c1705-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will speak briefly, in addition to what my noble friend Lady Williams of Crosby said, to...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 735 c1763 (Link to this contribution) Before we get on to the important matter raised by my noble friend of who is going to fix the tariff...
Earl Howe | 735 c1762-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the case for regulating prices for NHS services is strong. Many academics agree that compe...
Baroness Murphy | 735 c1761-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Warner, has said more or less what I was going to say. It seems to me...
Earl Howe | 735 c1756 (Link to this contribution) 200A: Clause 114, page 122, line 32, leave out paragraph (e) Amendment 200A agreed. Amendment 201 ...
Earl Howe | 735 c1756 (Link to this contribution) 199A: Clause 113, page 121, line 22, leave out from ““112”” to ““, the”” in line 23 199B: Clause 1...
Earl Howe | 735 c1755-6 (Link to this contribution) 198A: Clause 112, page 120, line 20, leave out subsections (1) to (6) and insert— ““(1) Section 111 ...
Earl Howe | 735 c1755 (Link to this contribution) 197A: Clause 111, page 119, line 28, leave out from ““notice”” to end of line 32 and insert ““requir...
Lord Warner | 735 c1760-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support my noble friend's Amendment 201D and I do so for a few simple reasons. I am afra...
Baroness Thornton | 735 c1756-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we now move on to pricing. We believe that setting the national tariff is a matter of poli...
Baroness Thornton | 735 c1756 (Link to this contribution) 201A: Clause 116, page 123, line 6, leave out ““Monitor”” and insert ““Regulations must provide and ...
Baroness Murphy | 735 c1755 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have added my name to four of the amendments in this group and I am wholly content that ...
Lord Clement-Jones | 735 c1754-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to speak to my amendments to express my thanks to the Minister for the amendments t...
Earl Howe | 735 c1755 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend and the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, for their comme...
Lord Patel | 735 c1750 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, and the noble Baroness, Lady William...
Lord Beecham | 735 c1751 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I can certainly reassure the noble Baroness on that score. I warmly endorse the amendment ...
Baroness Murphy | 735 c1750 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I also add my support to the very practical solution given in Amendments 196ZA, 214G and 2...
Lord Warner | 735 c1753 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful for the Government's support for this amendment. Amendment 196ZA agreed. C...
Earl Howe | 735 c1751-2 (Link to this contribution) As I hope will be clear, the Government's proposals are for a fair, transparent and comprehensive fr...
Earl Howe | 735 c1753-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to government Amendments 197A, 197B, 197C, 198A, 198B, 199A, 199B, 200A...
Earl Howe | 735 c1753 (Link to this contribution) 196C: Clause 111, page 119, line 19, leave out subsection (1) and insert— ““(1) Where Monitor is sat...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 735 c1750 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my intervention will be extremely short. I am delighted that the noble Lords, Lord Warner ...
Lord Warner | 735 c1748-50 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 214G which stands in my name. The amendments arise from ou...
Lord Warner | 735 c1748 (Link to this contribution) 196ZA: After Clause 99, insert the following new Clause— ““Notification of commissioners where conti...
Earl Howe | 735 c1747-8 (Link to this contribution) 193: Clause 97, page 109, line 13, at end insert— ““(da) for the purpose of enabling health care ser...
Earl Howe | 735 c1747 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understand the noble Baroness's question. It might be best if I wrote to her because the...
Earl Howe | 735 c1745-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been an interesting debate and I thank in particular the noble Lords, Lord Patel ...
Lord Clement-Jones | 735 c1744-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Howe for putting forward these amendments, particularly Amend...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 735 c1744 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the government amendments are indeed welcome because they reflect concerns that have been ...
Lord Warner | 735 c1744 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support this amendment. Since the noble Earl was so beastly to me over social care...
Earl Howe | 735 c1768-70 (Link to this contribution) 215: Clause 126, page 132, line 16, leave out ““licence holder”” and insert ““relevant provider”” ...
Earl Howe | 735 c1767-8 (Link to this contribution) 213: Clause 121, page 128, line 32, leave out ““licence holders”” and insert ““relevant providers”” ...
Lord Warner | 735 c1768 (Link to this contribution) 214G: After Clause 125, insert the following new Clause— ““Applications under section 125: notificat...
Earl Howe | 735 c1767 (Link to this contribution) 212: Schedule 12, page 381, line 18, leave out ““licence holder”” and insert ““relevant provider”” ...
Earl Howe | 735 c1767 (Link to this contribution) 205: Clause 120, page 127, line 38, leave out ““licence holders”” and insert ““relevant providers”” ...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 735 c1765 (Link to this contribution) Am I not allowed to say a word in response to the Minister?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 735 c1766 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think the noble Lord on the Woolsack is trying to assist the noble Lord, Lord Davies of ...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 735 c1766 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful for that guidance. In accordance with it, I have moved my amendment. I ...
Earl Howe | 735 c1763-5 (Link to this contribution) I will be happy to meet the noble Lord to talk about that. I was talking about the example of the N...
Baroness Thornton | 735 c1765 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister has explained this very clearly. We part company about the transparency, clar...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 735 c1765 (Link to this contribution) 201D:Clause 117, page 125, line 14, at end insert— ““(5A) Where the Commissioner of a health service...
Earl Howe | 735 c1766 (Link to this contribution) 202: Clause 118, page 125, line 18, leave out ““licence holder”” and insert ““relevant provider”” ...
Earl Howe | 735 c1733 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak also to Amendments 182 and 183. There is one simple point to Clause 77: it is ther...
Earl Howe | 735 c1733 (Link to this contribution) 181:Clause 77, page 98, line 34, leave out subsection (1) and insert— ““( ) For the purposes of Part...
Earl Howe | 735 c1733 (Link to this contribution) 179:Clause 76, page 98, line 26, after ““(1)(a)”” insert ““or (b)”” 180:Clause 76, page 98, line 3...
Baroness Thornton | 735 c1730 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move. Division on Amendment 178A Contents 157; Not-Contents 203. Amendment 178A disagree...
Earl Howe | 735 c1736 (Link to this contribution) 185: Clause 78, page 99, line 5, leave out paragraph (a) and insert— ““(a) the effectiveness of comp...
Earl Howe | 735 c1736-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may begin by clarifying the role of the Competition Commission as set out in the...
Lord Clement-Jones | 735 c1735-6 (Link to this contribution) 184: Clause 77, page 98, line 40, at end insert— ““(3A) Where the Office of Fair Trading decides to ...
Lord Beecham | 735 c1734 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendments are a good example of the thickets and undergrowth of the elaborate structu...
Earl Howe | 735 c1734-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I said earlier, retaining Clause 77 would have several substantial benefits. The OFT al...
Lord Clement-Jones | 735 c1733-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 184. In Committee, we debated the role of the OFT in merger pol...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 735 c1738 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may intervene briefly, if only to avoid withdrawal symptoms from not having spok...
Lord Clement-Jones | 735 c1737-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it would seem convenient, although it alters the groupings, to talk to my Amendments 186, ...
Baroness Hollins | 735 c1738-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like some reassurance that the regulation of competition will improve on the curre...
Lord Clement-Jones | 735 c1742 (Link to this contribution) 187: Clause 79, leave out Clause 79 Amendment 187 agreed. Clause 80 : Reviews under section 78: co...
Lord Clement-Jones | 735 c1742 (Link to this contribution) 188: Clause 80, leave out Clause 80 Amendment 188 agreed. Amendment 189 had been withdrawn from th...
Earl Howe | 735 c1742 (Link to this contribution) 190: Clause 87, page 104, line 36, leave out subsection (3) and insert— ““(3) Monitor may not set or...
Earl Howe | 735 c1742-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move Amendment 190 and speak to Amendments 193, 194, 195, 299 and 300. We have ta...
Baroness Thornton | 735 c1739-40 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to comment on the three amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clemen...
Earl Howe | 735 c1740-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments 196A and 196B, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, would remove the pr...
Lord Clement-Jones | 735 c1741 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for what he said. I recognise that it is not easy to take away a piec...
Baroness Thornton | 735 c1715-6 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether this is the way to do it. We disagree. I do not think that the Liberal Democra...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 735 c1715 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness is perfectly entitled to say what she had said. I accept that fully and I am sure...
Baroness Thornton | 735 c1714-5 (Link to this contribution) In response to that last remark, it depends on whether Monitor decides it is collusion or collaborat...
Earl Howe | 735 c1714 (Link to this contribution) Nor have I, which is why I listed earlier some prime examples of collaboration. Clinical networks ar...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 735 c1719 (Link to this contribution) 165:Clause 61, page 88, line 5, at end insert— ““( ) Monitor must exercise its functions with a view...
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 735 c1719 (Link to this contribution) 163C:Schedule 8, page 368, line 17, after ““functions”” insert— ““(b) include a statement of what it...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 735 c1720 (Link to this contribution) In summing up after the previous debate, the Minister spoke about the service currently being fragme...
Earl Howe | 735 c1720 (Link to this contribution) I am of course willing to hold discussions with the noble Baroness, but I remind her that we have ex...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 735 c1720-1 (Link to this contribution) I recognise that they will strengthen Monitor further and that they will come later, but my disappoi...
Earl Howe | 735 c1720 (Link to this contribution) I hoped that I had already made it clear to the noble Baroness that collaborative behaviour when it ...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 735 c1720 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for trying to clarify these matters, but my concern relates to anti-co...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 735 c1724 (Link to this contribution) 167A:Clause 63, page 89, line 34, at end insert— ““( ) Regulations may provide for Monitor to make t...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 735 c1723-4 (Link to this contribution) 166B:After Clause 61, insert the following new Clause— ““Secretary of State's guidance on duty under...
Lord Beecham | 735 c1725 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we certainly support these amendments. I am particularly pleased by the reference in Amend...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 735 c1724-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, some of the amendments in this group are in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord North...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 735 c1727-8 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for the assurances that she has given. I am particularly gr...
Earl Howe | 735 c1728 (Link to this contribution) 172: Clause 64, page 90, line 20, leave out paragraph (h) Amendment 172 agreed. Amendment 173 not ...
Earl Howe | 735 c1728-9 (Link to this contribution) 173A: Clause 64, page 90, line 27, at end insert— ““(ja) where the Secretary of State publishes a do...
Earl Howe | 735 c1729 (Link to this contribution) 175:Clause 69, page 93, line 38, after ““Monitor's”” insert ““, other than a function it has by virt...
Baroness Thornton | 735 c1729-30 (Link to this contribution) 178A:Clause 73, page 96, line 30, at end insert— ““(5) An NHS commissioner shall be entitled to unde...
Lord Patel | 735 c1743-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my Amendment 191 relates to the standard conditions that Monitor must determine, in public...
Baroness Cumberlege | 735 c1744 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support this amendment, which is in my name and those of the noble Lords, Lord Patel and...
Lord Warner | 735 c1670 (Link to this contribution) 163AA: Before Clause 60, insert the following new Clause— ““PART 2A Standards of adult social care S...
Lord Warner | 735 c1670-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we return to the issue of adult social care, which is a good occasion for seeing a massive...
Earl Howe | 735 c1692 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are talking about Amendment 178A. I disagree with the noble Baroness's reading of it. I...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 735 c1747 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his reply on indemnity. Would the risk pool apply to the provider ...
Earl Howe | 735 c1735 (Link to this contribution) 182: Clause 77, page 98, line 37, leave out ““have ceased”” and insert ““cease”” 183: Clause 77, p...
Baroness Thornton | 735 c1696 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise to the House for the confusion that has just reigned. I blame the Liberal Demo...
Earl Howe | 735 c1689 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, competition in the health service is a complex topic and very often, in my experience, mis...
Lord Warner | 735 c1678-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is an interesting debate. Let me say to the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, that I am no...
Earl Howe | 735 c1710-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is a clear purpose to Part 3. It is to strengthen sector regulation of healthcare in...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 735 c1757-60 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 201D in my name. I tentatively proposed this in Committee as a ...
Baroness Northover | 735 c1725-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is a clear consensus on the importance of further integration and more services bein...
Earl Howe | 735 c1728 (Link to this contribution) 168: Clause 64, page 90, leave out line 2 and insert— ““(1) In exercising its functions, Monitor mus...

Subjects

Children
Competition
Competition Commission
Health
Health services
Finance
Fees and charges
Licensing
EU law
Local government
Private sector
NHS
Patients
Mergers
Office of Fair Trading
Prices
Negligence
NHS foundation trusts
Young people
Regulation
Reform
Social services
Patients' forums
Monitor
Care Quality Commission
NHS Commissioning Board
Healthwatch England
Clinical commissioning groups

Legislation

Health and Social Care Bill 2010-12

Link

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