European Union Bill

Debate on bills on Monday, 11 July 2011, in the House of Commons.

European Union Bill. Progamme motion (No. 3) on proceedings on consideration of Lords amendments and subsequent stages. Agreed to on question. Consideration of Lords amendments. Lords amendments 1, 2 and 4 agreed to. Lords amendments 3, and 5 to 13 disagreed to. Lords amendment 14 agreed to as amended. Lords amendment 15 disagreed to on division (301 votes to 212). Committee appointed to draw up reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to their amendments 3, 5 to 13 and 15. Reasons reported and agreed to. To be communicated to the Lords with the Bill and amendments.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

531 c58-110

Session

2010-12

Proceeding contributions

Mark Reckless | 531 c67 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend presumed earlier that the Lords had inserted the amendments to protect parliame...

David Lidington | 531 c67 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has put matters on the record. I am content to take the arguments and reasons given b...

Show all contributions (159)

Ian Swales | 531 c67 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister agree that if we accept the amendment, we are setting up a perverse incentive for ...

David Lidington | 531 c67 (Link to this contribution) That puts it fairly. The perverse incentive to seek an apathetic reaction from the electorate is one...

Chris Heaton-Harris | 531 c66-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for giving way; he is being generous with his time. Does he agree that threshol...

David Lidington | 531 c66 (Link to this contribution) I am confident that if and when a British Government made a proposal to support a treaty change to g...

David Lidington | 531 c67 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend puts his point well. There have been parliamentary by-elections where the total turno...

Ian Davidson | 531 c66 (Link to this contribution) Can I clarify what the Minister is saying? Is he saying that the 40% rule would apply not only to re...

David Lidington | 531 c66 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to speculate on a hypothetical Scottish referendum. We have said clearly not just on ...

Denis MacShane | 531 c66 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Gentleman recall the referendums on Scottish and Welsh devolution in the late 19...

Speaker | 531 c66 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am not trying to bury my unsuccessful past.

David Lidington | 531 c65 (Link to this contribution) I think the hon. Gentleman is being hypothetical and I am sure that some voters would be cussed enou...

Kelvin Hopkins | 531 c65 (Link to this contribution) In very extreme circumstances, there could be a result of 39% to zero with the zeros winning.

David Lidington | 531 c65 (Link to this contribution) I assumed that I did not need to translate the figures for the right hon. Gentleman and I am sure th...

David Lidington | 531 c65 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is absolutely correct about the views of the Electoral Commission, which I beli...

Charles Kennedy | 531 c65 (Link to this contribution) The argument that the Minister is very fairly advancing is reinforced by what the Electoral Commissi...

David Lidington | 531 c64-5 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. We get into very dangerous territory as elected representatives when we sta...

Henry Smith | 531 c64 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for being so courteous in giving way. Does he agree that, iron...

David Lidington | 531 c64 (Link to this contribution) We sought in this Bill to define a constitutional change of the sort that my hon. Friend describes i...

David Lidington | 531 c64 (Link to this contribution) The principle on which the Government have consistently sought to act in preparing and introducing t...

William Cash | 531 c64 (Link to this contribution) Let me have one last shot. Does the Minister concede that there is a world of difference between the...

Ian Davidson | 531 c62 (Link to this contribution) Given that this proposal refers specifically to Gibraltar, has the Minister sought and obtained the ...

David Lidington | 531 c62 (Link to this contribution) I can certainly assure my hon. Friend that the current Government are absolutely committed to Gibral...

David Lidington | 531 c62 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 3.

David Lidington | 531 c62 (Link to this contribution) Yes, we have done so. The original provision before its amendment by the House of Lords was approved...

David Lidington | 531 c63 (Link to this contribution) I ask the House not to support the Lords in these amendments. I am afraid that I am going to have to...

Speaker | 531 c62 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Lords amendments 5 to 13 and 15.

David Lidington | 531 c63 (Link to this contribution) If, as I hope, this Bill obtains Royal Assent and goes on to the statute book, this Government and f...

William Cash | 531 c63 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend join me in deploring what recent events have demonstrated? Does he, thus, ...

William Cash | 531 c63 (Link to this contribution) May I say that I am delighted by that delightfully disingenuous response? As my right hon. Friend kn...

Henry Smith | 531 c62 (Link to this contribution) Notwithstanding the recent comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) on the need for...

David Lidington | 531 c60 (Link to this contribution) Since the Bill was given its Third Reading just four months ago, it has been considered carefully an...

Speaker | 531 c60 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to take Lords amendments 2 and 4.

David Lidington | 531 c60 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 1.

David Lidington | 531 c61 (Link to this contribution) I certainly do not intend to delay our reaching a group of amendments in which I know my hon. Friend...

William Cash | 531 c60 (Link to this contribution) If I may quote the hallowed words of, I believe, John Bright, we should perhaps"““Be just, and fear ...

David Lidington | 531 c60 (Link to this contribution) I welcome what I take to be the hon. Gentleman's support for a reversal of some of the Lords amendme...

Kelvin Hopkins | 531 c60 (Link to this contribution) Having read the Lords amendments fairly carefully over an hour or so, I have the impression that the...

David Lidington | 531 c61-2 (Link to this contribution) I am encouraged by my hon. Friend's remarks to be increasingly confident that we can reach the group...

William Cash | 531 c61 (Link to this contribution) Having listened with enthusiasm and interest to my right hon. Friend's earlier remarks about timing,...

Wayne David | 531 c77 (Link to this contribution) That is an important qualification, which I will come on to address specifically. It is important at...

Wayne David | 531 c76 (Link to this contribution) That is not entirely fair. When Lord Kerr presented his argument, he suggested that referendums coul...

Kelvin Hopkins | 531 c76-7 (Link to this contribution) Even though legislation can in a sense bind our successors, our successors can introduce legislation...

Chris Heaton-Harris | 531 c72-3 (Link to this contribution) To help out the Opposition, the Minister may have noticed that they had a completely different polic...

Speaker | 531 c73 (Link to this contribution) I do not want the Minister to help out the Opposition, who can take care of themselves. I want him t...

David Lidington | 531 c73 (Link to this contribution) I shall turn to Lords amendment 15, which would insert a sunset clause into the Bill, so that part 1...

Kelvin Hopkins | 531 c73 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely, and I think that the British people would like the Bill to be rather stronger.

David Lidington | 531 c74-5 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is inviting me to comment on the subject matter of the third group of amendments. I h...

William Cash | 531 c74 (Link to this contribution) I am interested in the line that my right hon. Friend is taking. Without pre-empting any other discu...

Charlie Elphicke | 531 c76 (Link to this contribution) A Government would say that only if they did not think that they could win such a referendum, so how...

Wayne David | 531 c75-6 (Link to this contribution) I would like to comment briefly on Lords amendments 3 and 5 regarding the 40% threshold and on Lords...

David Lidington | 531 c73 (Link to this contribution) I think that the British people would be alarmed at the thought that they were being offered new rig...

David Lidington | 531 c73-4 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is quite right. In a previous Parliament, when we voted for constitutional legislatio...

Henry Smith | 531 c73 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is entirely right. If the amendment were allowed to stand, would it not render ...

David Lidington | 531 c71 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is nodding, so he must explain why members of his party—not just Labour Back Benc...

William Cash | 531 c71-2 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that perhaps it has something to do with the report on the question ...

David Lidington | 531 c70-1 (Link to this contribution) As the House debated in Committee and on Report, in the Bill it is the creation of a common European...

Wayne David | 531 c71 (Link to this contribution) indicated assent.

David Lidington | 531 c72 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good point. The Opposition need to own up to where they are coming from. If t...

David Lidington | 531 c72 (Link to this contribution) I have huge respect for Lord Brittan, Lord Heseltine and those senior Liberal Democrats in the House...

Wayne David | 531 c72 (Link to this contribution) I will make a deal with the Minister. I am more than happy to explain the Labour party's decision wh...

David Lidington | 531 c72 (Link to this contribution) I will try to avoid that temptation, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Speaker | 531 c72 (Link to this contribution) Order. It has been interesting to hear hon. Members discuss their opinions of the careers of disting...

William Cash | 531 c72 (Link to this contribution) He has got a pension too.

Wayne David | 531 c72 (Link to this contribution) I find it amusing and surprising that the Minister is dismissive of senior Members of the House of L...

Ian Davidson | 531 c67 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way in the circumstances. Surely the hon. Member for Roches...

David Lidington | 531 c67-8 (Link to this contribution) One thing that I have learned in my 19 years in this place is that each House is very jealous of its...

William Cash | 531 c68-9 (Link to this contribution) On that important point, is my right hon. Friend aware of the remarks of the Prime Minister as repor...

Mark Reckless | 531 c69 (Link to this contribution) In that case, although Ministers had such great success in preventing the use of the EU-wide financi...

Speaker | 531 c69 (Link to this contribution) Order. For the convenience of the House, I remind Members that just because the debate has the word ...

Bernard Jenkin | 531 c70 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is making an able demolition of these unacceptable amendments, but will he desc...

David Lidington | 531 c69-70 (Link to this contribution) The amendments to clause 6 would introduce huge inconsistency in the referendum lock. They would mak...

David Lidington | 531 c93 (Link to this contribution) I want to make some progress. It is not only the devolution legislation that mentions European Unio...

William Cash | 531 c93 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend give way?

David Lidington | 531 c93-4 (Link to this contribution) We welcome the acceptance in the House of Lords of the principle of clause 18, and recognise the con...

Speaker | 531 c91 (Link to this contribution) Order. I have been generous to the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) as the Chairman of the European S...

Wayne David | 531 c92 (Link to this contribution) I understand the right hon. Gentleman's point and I have sympathy with his argument. Crucial to the ...

David Lidington | 531 c91-2 (Link to this contribution) I make two points to my hon. Friend. First, the only reason why the Supreme Court has power to adjud...

Bernard Jenkin | 531 c93 (Link to this contribution) I still do not understand what was wrong with the Government's original drafting.

David Lidington | 531 c92-3 (Link to this contribution) I decided to include the words on the basis of the best legal advice available to me across Governme...

David Lidington | 531 c93 (Link to this contribution) We believe that the original drafting met the tests that we had set to implement our policy of havin...

David Lidington | 531 c91 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend, and I am sure he will recall the debate on these matters on Second Read...

William Cash | 531 c91 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. That is precisely why my right hon. Friend knows I must move on to ask him whether he accept...

William Cash | 531 c90-1 (Link to this contribution) I rather suspect that my right hon. Friend expected that I would rise at about this point. Very quic...

Steve Baker | 531 c89 (Link to this contribution) We are all grateful to my hon. Friend for his lifelong service on this issue, but on the esoterica o...

William Cash | 531 c88-9 (Link to this contribution) In a sense, this whole group of amendments is a con trick and an illusion. The test to be applied in...

Chris Heaton-Harris | 531 c88 (Link to this contribution) If only the hon. Gentleman's Front Bench were as wise as he is. I know that he has been campaigning ...

David Lidington | 531 c90 (Link to this contribution) I should like first to recognise that the issue we are debating is, to an extent, an issue of detail...

Speaker | 531 c90 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendment (b).

David Lidington | 531 c90 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move Government amendment (a) to Lords amendment 14.

William Cash | 531 c89-90 (Link to this contribution) They are, and it is for that reason that I will not be able to vote for them, even though I happen t...

William Cash | 531 c102 (Link to this contribution) That may well be but as the Minister rightly says it will be the Minister's view that is taken into ...

David Lidington | 531 c102 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has made his point. Not only Lord Mackay but the Lords Constitution Committee recogni...

Speaker | 531 c106 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby. The House having divided: Ayes...

David Lidington | 531 c101 (Link to this contribution) Judges will of course look first at statute but it is also the case, following the Pepper v. Hart ju...

Steve Baker | 531 c101 (Link to this contribution) May I say how grateful I am that my right hon. Friend has given this clear statement of the Governme...

David Lidington | 531 c101 (Link to this contribution) The explanatory notes were changed when they were reprinted before the Bill was introduced in the Ho...

Bernard Jenkin | 531 c100 (Link to this contribution) I am just coming to the hon. Gentleman's point. I was minded to accept that we had done such a thin...

Wayne David | 531 c100 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Wayne David | 531 c101 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister goes on, may I cast his mind back to the trenchant criticism from the European S...

David Lidington | 531 c101 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) and my hon. Friends the Members for Stone...

William Cash | 531 c99-100 (Link to this contribution) Would my hon. Friend be interested to know that I was talking to an extremely eminent lawyer, althou...

Bernard Jenkin | 531 c100 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing the House's attention to that conversation. We are poten...

Bernard Jenkin | 531 c99 (Link to this contribution) I do not wish to detain the House for more than a few minutes. I had not intended to take part in th...

William Cash | 531 c99 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman actually saying that he agrees with the Government's proposal, notwithstanding...

Wayne David | 531 c98 (Link to this contribution) This long debate, which has taken place over a number of months, has almost come full circle. I reca...

William Cash | 531 c97-8 (Link to this contribution) I have no problem in acknowledging someone's powerful views on constitutional questions. For example...

David Lidington | 531 c97 (Link to this contribution) I respect my hon. Friend's expertise in this area, but to suggest that Lord Mackay of Clashfern woul...

William Cash | 531 c97 (Link to this contribution) Effectively yes, and that is the one thing we wanted to avoid above all else. That is why the Commit...

Bernard Jenkin | 531 c97 (Link to this contribution) May I just test my understanding? Am I right in thinking that my hon. Friend is saying that the orig...

William Cash | 531 c79 (Link to this contribution) The little matter that the hon. Gentleman happened conveniently to leave out of that remark was the ...

Wayne David | 531 c79 (Link to this contribution) It is important that we recognise that the British people have a voice, which is why we have been cl...

Andrea Leadsom | 531 c79 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman regret the fact, then, than when in government Labour did not give the Briti...

Speaker | 531 c79 (Link to this contribution) Order. We are talking about amendments from the Lords on constitutional issues. I am sure, Mr David,...

Wayne David | 531 c79 (Link to this contribution) I will restrain myself, Madam Deputy Speaker, and follow your strictures. I shall refocus on the id...

Charlie Elphicke | 531 c79 (Link to this contribution) I take the hon. Gentleman's point about an affirmative resolution, but nevertheless, that resolution...

Wayne David | 531 c79 (Link to this contribution) With due respect, I think it is a good one. Purely in terms of procedure, as the Government have con...

Bernard Jenkin | 531 c80 (Link to this contribution) It gives me some pleasure to speak in support of the Government in opposing these Lords amendments. ...

Wayne David | 531 c80 (Link to this contribution) But that is precisely the point. What makes the Bill special, different and innovative is that it de...

Bernard Jenkin | 531 c80-2 (Link to this contribution) But that applies to a great deal of legislation. I do not understand the distinction that the hon. G...

William Cash | 531 c77 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the question of fettering a future Parliament is secondary these...

Wayne David | 531 c77 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not think that that is the case. One thing that has come across clearly in this legislation...

Ian Swales | 531 c77 (Link to this contribution) The sovereignty of Parliament is obviously absolutely key. If we passed the sunset clause, sovereign...

Wayne David | 531 c77 (Link to this contribution) Like the Minister, I do not want to stray into that debate. One thing that has been clear from this ...

Charlie Elphicke | 531 c77 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful case for Parliaments not binding their successors. The logic...

Wayne David | 531 c78 (Link to this contribution) I very much hope that in this Parliament that will not be the case. I have taken heart from the rebe...

Wayne David | 531 c77-8 (Link to this contribution) No, it would not pass to the Government, because we are talking about Parliament itself deciding. In...

William Cash | 531 c78 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman please reflect on what he just said? Is he trying to maintain the fiction th...

Wayne David | 531 c78 (Link to this contribution) That might be the true voice of the British Conservative party, but it is not the voice of the hon. ...

Chris Heaton-Harris | 531 c87-8 (Link to this contribution) Please do not steal my thunder for later. I am aware that Madam Deputy Speaker might rule me out of ...

Kelvin Hopkins | 531 c85-6 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman recently said that the tectonic plates were starting to move. I think that he is ...

Chris Heaton-Harris | 531 c86-7 (Link to this contribution) It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins), who is a very wi...

Mark Reckless | 531 c87 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend, as an ex-Member of the European Parliament, explain the difference between his ...

Speaker | 531 c87 (Link to this contribution) Order. That is not relevant to the amendments that the hon. Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris...

Andrea Leadsom | 531 c84 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the referendum lock will place a new onus on successive Governments, ...

Bernard Jenkin | 531 c84 (Link to this contribution) I agree that it is a good thing, but I wish that the Bill applied to some of the powers that the Gov...

Kelvin Hopkins | 531 c84-5 (Link to this contribution) I will speak on these amendments only briefly because much has been said already that I need not rep...

William Cash | 531 c85 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that over the past few months we have been trying to stem a tsunami, ...

Chris Heaton-Harris | 531 c87 (Link to this contribution) First, I shall give way to the hon. Member for Luton North.

Kelvin Hopkins | 531 c87 (Link to this contribution) I am interested to hear about the particular Members of the House of Lords whom the hon. Gentleman m...

Bernard Jenkin | 531 c82-3 (Link to this contribution) I know that my hon. Friend does not advocate an in-out referendum, but the general direction of the ...

Bernard Jenkin | 531 c82 (Link to this contribution) If I follow my hon. Friend's question, he thinks that we should have a referendum on more questions ...

William Cash | 531 c82 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is a genuine friend. The referendum should be not on more questions, but the question...

Bernard Jenkin | 531 c82 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend. I rather like the hon. Member for Caerphilly, who is an engaging and as...

William Cash | 531 c82 (Link to this contribution) Before my hon. Friend ends his speech, would he be good enough to allow me to put one thought to him...

Henry Smith | 531 c82 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that what we see from Opposition Members is not so much a rebirth of Euros...

Bernard Jenkin | 531 c84 (Link to this contribution) Yes, but I am left wondering whether their advice to us from the House of Lords today reflects the a...

Bernard Jenkin | 531 c83 (Link to this contribution) I will give way briefly, but I am about to sit down.

Wayne David | 531 c83 (Link to this contribution) I like the hon. Gentleman as he likes me. However, although we might have disagreements with disting...

William Cash | 531 c66 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend may recall that it was my amendment that led to the question of the threshold i...

Denis MacShane | 531 c65 (Link to this contribution) That is not 100%.

David Lidington | 531 c67 (Link to this contribution) I will give way one last time, because I want to deal with the other Lords amendments in the group.

David Lidington | 531 c69 (Link to this contribution) Providing the formal response to my hon. Friend's question is clearly a treat that is yet in store f...

Graham Stringer | 531 c88 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is listing a lot of important subjects. Quite frankly, I would support an EU refe...

Mark Reckless | 531 c78 (Link to this contribution) Is not the key point about the Bill that it makes provision for referendums at some potential future...

David Lidington | 531 c66 (Link to this contribution) In 1979, I was still a university student and had other things on my mind than the devolution refere...

David Lidington | 531 c69 (Link to this contribution) I think that I would test the House's patience if I were to go into that in detail, particularly as ...

Wayne David | 531 c99 (Link to this contribution) With all due respect, I say to the hon. Gentleman that I have read in great detail all the evidence ...

William Cash | 531 c94-6 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that the Minister deemed it unnecessary, or undesirable, to accept my intervention, but t...