European Union Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Tuesday, 26 April 2011, in the House of Lords.

European Union Bill. Lords committee stage second day. Clause 3: Amendment of TFEU under simplified revision procedure, agreed to. Clause 4: Cases where treaty or Article 48(6) decision attracts a referendum, under consideration.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

727 c20-55, c68-80, c87-104

Session

2010-12

Proceeding contributions

Lord Liddle | 727 c103-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, has tried to make a very powerful case for the Government, b...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 727 c101 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord will take his seat. We are not on a deadline tonight but a...

Show all contributions (149)

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c101 (Link to this contribution) I did not stand up because I was waiting for my turn. I moved to speak on several occasions. Obvious...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c101-2 (Link to this contribution) I merely wish to say that I wanted to speak to this amendment from the start. It is not my fault if ...

Lord Davies of Stamford | 727 c102 (Link to this contribution) The great joy for me is that, for the first time in many, many years, I find myself in agreement wit...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c102-3 (Link to this contribution) I will not pursue that further. The question is: does the Bill tie the hands of the British Governm...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c102 (Link to this contribution) I was referring to Article 308 as it was under the Nice treaty. Before that it was Article 257 in th...

Lord Davies of Stamford | 727 c95-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support my noble friend’s amendment but let me first deal with the point that the noble ...

Lord Waddington | 727 c94-5 (Link to this contribution) Surely there is a point to be made with regard to this amendment, which could have been made with eq...

Lord Davies of Stamford | 727 c98 (Link to this contribution) I had thought to myself, ““Dear oh dear””; when the noble Lord and I were colleagues in the Conserva...

Lord Flight | 727 c97 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it seems perhaps surprising but state aid is yet another area where powers granted to the ...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c93 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the noble Lord knows Justice Scalia of the US Supreme Court well. Justice Scalia has ...

Lord Liddle | 727 c93-4 (Link to this contribution) I shall of course withdraw the amendment at this stage. What I find puzzling, though, is that when t...

Lord Liddle | 727 c94 (Link to this contribution) 20ZB: Clause 4, page 3, line 28, at end insert ““, except where such conferral strengthens the abili...

Lord Liddle | 727 c94 (Link to this contribution) This is a similar amendment, which is an attempt to insert in Clause 4(1)(j) an exception of where a...

Lord Liddle | 727 c92 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has made a helpful point. My fear in all of this is that what we are doing throug...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c92 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, is that not one of the disadvantages of this amendment? It does nothing to prevent compete...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c101 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I gave way to what I understood was an intervention from the noble Lord. He previously gav...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c100-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I could speak to this amendment before the noble Lord sits down, but if he is going to rep...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c100 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I fear that we have been following a number of hypothetical will o’ the wisps around here....

Lord Risby | 727 c99-100 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, essentially the amendments deal with the removal of a referendum provision in three areas ...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c100 (Link to this contribution) My Lords—

Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 727 c99 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask for the patience of the Committee for a moment so that I may respond on that very ...

Lord Waddington | 727 c99 (Link to this contribution) Surely we are entitled to ask the noble Lord for an explanation as to why the Opposition sought an a...

Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 727 c98-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may stick to the substance of the amendment. As I have not been privy to the deb...

Lord Liddle | 727 c99 (Link to this contribution) The point of these amendments is the reverse of the significance test. We are saying that securing c...

Lord Flight | 727 c98 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that all noble Lords would agree with the basic reason for opposing state aid, as the nobl...

Lord Tomlinson | 727 c28 (Link to this contribution) Has the noble Lord finished? When the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, was speaking, I think I quote him...

Lord Tomlinson | 727 c28 (Link to this contribution) If that is the moderate centre, I wonder why I gave way so easily to the noble Lord, Lord Waddington...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c28 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on making the record clear, is the noble Lord referring to the noble Lord, Lord Waddington...

Lord Waddington | 727 c28 (Link to this contribution) I was grateful for the intervention made by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, because it enabled people ...

Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes | 727 c27 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord agree that, in view of what he said, it is somewhat surprising that the German e...

Lord Tomlinson | 727 c27-8 (Link to this contribution) The euro might be weak in relation to some other countries, but it is certainly not weak in relation...

Lord Waddington | 727 c28 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think I can say that there was a time when that might have been my view, but it is not w...

Lord Tomlinson | 727 c27 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was not going to speak to this group of amendments, but I have been provoked by the prev...

Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c24 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord was waxing eloquent on Article 308. Can he confirm that the Government of which he wa...

Lord Waddington | 727 c24-5 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is entirely right, which proves the point that there ought to be referendums in such ...

Baroness Rawlings | 727 c25 (Link to this contribution) I am reluctant to intervene at this stage, but I remind noble Lords that the Companion advises that ...

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 727 c23 (Link to this contribution) Has the noble Lord noticed that in the past year there has been some dissent and public concern abou...

Lord Waddington | 727 c23 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is perfectly entitled to pick on what I said about salaries but, of course, it goes v...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c23 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I did not want interrupt the excellent speech of my noble friend, if I may refer to him as...

Lord Waddington | 727 c24 (Link to this contribution) Undoubtedly, history has shown that it is extremely difficult to give the people the role to which t...

Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c26 (Link to this contribution) I speak in support of this amendment, though I support more drastic surgery in terms of reducing the...

Lord Flight | 727 c26-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is a sad fact that this legislation is needed because successive Governments have let d...

Lord Liddle | 727 c20 (Link to this contribution) 16A: Clause 3, page 3, line 2, at end insert ““either””

Lord Waddington | 727 c22-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was wondering when the Statement would be made, hence my hesitation. I hope that I will ...

Lord Liddle | 727 c20-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 16B. These are amendments to Clause 3 and their purpose is...

Baroness Hayman | 727 c22 (Link to this contribution) It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I report that my understanding is that, after the ...

Lord Goodhart | 727 c43 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, thinks that what happens in the European Union is of immense conce...

Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 727 c43 (Link to this contribution) I agree absolutely with my noble friend. I only wish that I could believe that we were going to see ...

Lord Waddington | 727 c43 (Link to this contribution) Is not my noble friend guilty of excessive moderation? When one thinks about it, there is no need fo...

Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 727 c42-3 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to be drawn into the debate but, having heard my noble friend Lady Williams of Cr...

Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c44 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps your Lordships might find it useful if I were to intervene at this stage, because ...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c43-4 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may also remind the noble Lord that Mr Hague did not fight that election on the issue of E...

Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 727 c43 (Link to this contribution) Yes, and perhaps my noble friend would like to remind himself why William Hague fought the election ...

Lord Radice | 727 c46 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that it is a fantasy that there would be a series of small referenda. If it is an ...

Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c45-6 (Link to this contribution) The reasons lie in the procedures that flow from the Lisbon treaty, which gave birth, rather unwilli...

Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c38 (Link to this contribution) The answer is yes.

Lord Sewel | 727 c39 (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Lord be good enough to inform us how many of these—I forget the numbers, so could I ...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c38-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, to come back to Amendments 16A and 16B, I oppose them because they make it possible for th...

Lord Sewel | 727 c39 (Link to this contribution) Of those 500, how many would have been subject to a referendum?

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c39 (Link to this contribution) It is over 100 a year; 515 in the past five years.

Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c40 (Link to this contribution) I am not quite sure of the relevance of this discussion to the amendment that we are debating. The n...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c39-40 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is not the point. The point is that it will not be the British Government or this Par...

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 727 c41-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may refer briefly to the remarks made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, on...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c40-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord is trying to ameliorate an intolerable situation. It is a fact that the scr...

Lord Grenfell | 727 c42 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, applied the test of common sense to the relationship between Clauses 2 an...

Lord Grenfell | 727 c70 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. However, he has not quite grasped the purpose o...

Lord Liddle | 727 c68-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will speak to the amendments in this bloc—Amendments 17, 18, 19, 19A and 28. They relate...

Lord Liddle | 727 c68 (Link to this contribution) 17: Clause 3, page 3, line 4, leave out ““(1)(i) or (j)”” and insert ““(1)””

Lord Liddle | 727 c54-5 (Link to this contribution) We can all trade our Winston Churchill quotes, but certainly the thrust of his intervention was grea...

Lord Waddington | 727 c53 (Link to this contribution) I wonder if the noble Lord would allow me to put him right on this matter because it was raised the ...

Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c70 (Link to this contribution) That would take rather a long time. I think that perhaps Germany rather than the European Union had ...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c70 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, while the noble Lord is on this subject, would he care to comment on the European Union’s ...

Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c70 (Link to this contribution) That is precisely what I did not say. I said that the Select Committee was performing its function a...

Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c47-51 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I fear that that is a good example of taking part of an argument, which I wish to develop ...

Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c47 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister, and I will certainly not intervene in his speech again. Like the...

Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c51-2 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that that would be the case, for the very good reason that the great issues that conc...

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 727 c51 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for giving way for a moment. How would he escape from the horns of a very di...

Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c47 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord casts his mind back to the Lisbon treaty and the previous treaties, some of them t...

Lord Liddle | 727 c53 (Link to this contribution) I certainly do not want to contradict what the noble Lord has said, but he ought to remember that, l...

Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c52 (Link to this contribution) No, I am not going to give way again, I am afraid. We have had enough interventions. I was concludi...

Lord Dykes | 727 c52 (Link to this contribution) My Lords—

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c53 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that those of us who are described as Eurosceptic are not anti-...

Lord Liddle | 727 c52-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have had a long debate on a series of relatively small amendments designed to improve t...

Lord Liddle | 727 c91 (Link to this contribution) There is a lot with which I agree in what the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, has said. I agre...

Baroness O'Cathain | 727 c91-2 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord stated that the Bill seeks to cramp parts of the Lisbon treaty. Does he not agree tha...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c89-90 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I welcome a debate in which we are discussing the amendment in front of us rather than hav...

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 727 c90 (Link to this contribution) The number of judges in the court is defined in the treaty. So changing the number of judges in the ...

Lord Flight | 727 c89 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not quite clear what the amendment is intended to achieve. If it is intended to block...

Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 727 c89 (Link to this contribution) Having heard the explanation of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, I wonder whether my noble friend might ...

Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c91 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that I have ever said that. I have never accused the Labour Party of gerrymandering a...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c91 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. I was in no way suggesting that his imagination had st...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c90 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister replies, can I ask the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, whether, with his great knowledge ...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c90-1 (Link to this contribution) I think the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, is not going to answer. I had something in my notes about how the...

Lord Liddle | 727 c87 (Link to this contribution) 20ZA: Clause 4, page 3, line 26, at end insert ““, except where such conferral strengthens the abili...

Lord Liddle | 727 c87-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is a danger in this Committee that we will be accused of mind-boggling pedantry on t...

Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c88 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle. He is about to move a whole raft of amendmen...

Lord Empey | 727 c71-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in the short time that I have been in this House, it has seemed very difficult to have dis...

Lord Mandelson | 727 c72-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not want to detain your Lordships so near to the dinner break; I shall make only thre...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c73 (Link to this contribution) My Lords—

Lord Mandelson | 727 c73-4 (Link to this contribution) If I may persist, I am not going to make very extensive remarks and we have heard a lot from the nob...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c74-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, did not take my brief intervention, which is slightly a...

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean | 727 c75-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should like to talk about Clause 3 standing part of the Bill, if that is agreeable to yo...

Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c76-80 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have discussed the principles and details embraced in this clause at some length and I ...

Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c32 (Link to this contribution) Good. Thank you.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c34 (Link to this contribution) To assert that those of us who are a bit sceptical about the European Union are quite happy to accep...

Lord Dykes | 727 c34 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for intervening. I took a chance on including Independent Labour in these gru...

Lord Dykes | 727 c34 (Link to this contribution) It would be a bit unfair to repeat the same subject.

Lord Dykes | 727 c34 (Link to this contribution) That is an improvement, then. The noble Lord is now saying that this country should sign lots of tre...

Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c34 (Link to this contribution) I would not want the noble Lord to misrepresent me. I do not believe that this country should be on ...

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 727 c29 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, and to welcome both him and th...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c29 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, are we not still on Amendments 16A and 16B? We have not come to the Question whether Claus...

Lord Tomlinson | 727 c28-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, now that we have had five or six sentences of clarification when I have managed to get onl...

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 727 c29-30 (Link to this contribution) I asked at the start of Committee why we needed Clause 3. Clause 3 refers to the simplified or accel...

Lord Anderson of Swansea | 727 c30 (Link to this contribution) Is there not a logical problem in saying that because a number of insignificant matters are lumped t...

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 727 c29 (Link to this contribution) I am open to correction. I thought that it might be convenient if I made now the points which I have...

Lord Dykes | 727 c31 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think that the Committee generally will very much welcome the Government’s suggestion.

Baroness Rawlings | 727 c31 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I sense that it is the feeling of the Committee that the Question on Clause 3 stand part s...

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 727 c30-1 (Link to this contribution) That seems likely to be the case. I agree with the noble Lord. The second argument that the noble L...

Lord Richard | 727 c38 (Link to this contribution) With respect, I will respond to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, before giving way to the noble Lord, L...

Lord Goodhart | 727 c38 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord said that people would be very upset by having a European public prosecutor’s office,...

Lord Richard | 727 c38 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry that I gave way to the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, because he was interrupting t...

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean | 727 c38 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in light of what the noble Baroness, Lady Rawlings, said a few moments ago, I seek a littl...

Lord Richard | 727 c37 (Link to this contribution) With respect, I have given way a great deal. If the noble Lord will let me make progress, I will giv...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c37-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I disagree with the noble Lord because I would have thought that it was perfectly possible...

Lord Richard | 727 c38 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, all I can say in answer to that—

Lord Goodhart | 727 c38 (Link to this contribution) My Lords—

Lord Richard | 727 c37 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I can promise my noble friend one thing: if such a referendum were to take place, the turn...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c37 (Link to this contribution) My Lords—

Lord Goodhart | 727 c36 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Lord for raising these points. I should make it clear that I have ta...

Lord Richard | 727 c36-7 (Link to this contribution) I am glad to have such approval of what I am saying in advance. I entirely agree with what the noble...

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 727 c36 (Link to this contribution) Will my noble friend give way?

Lord Richard | 727 c36 (Link to this contribution) No, not yet. The next paragraph refers to, "““where the United Kingdom has become a participant in a...

Lord Dykes | 727 c35 (Link to this contribution) I hope the noble Lord will forgive me; he has not been here since the beginning of the debate. I sh...

Lord Richard | 727 c35-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have had a brisk debate so far, to put it mildly. I want to try to meet an argument tha...

Lord Dykes | 727 c35 (Link to this contribution) We do not want to get into a permanent Second Reading debate; I am sure that that would be very irri...

Lord Janner of Braunstone | 727 c35 (Link to this contribution) I—

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c34 (Link to this contribution) Because those other organisations do not make our law without the consent of this Parliament or our ...

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 727 c37 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend illustrates the matter brilliantly in relation to the extension of powers of the pub...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c102 (Link to this contribution) We are not necessarily on a very tight deadline, but it is customary to move towards a close. Howeve...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c102 (Link to this contribution) I return to where we were on the amendment, as on some of the others that follow. Here we have a Gov...

Lord Risby | 727 c25 (Link to this contribution) Listening to the proceedings on the Bill, I was struck by the comments made by the noble Baroness, L...

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 727 c70-1 (Link to this contribution) I apologise as I am standing up. Mine is the first name attached to the Clause 3 stand part Motion o...

Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c31-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on the point that the noble Baroness raised, I do not think that I heard a loud voice sayi...

Lord Dykes | 727 c32-4 (Link to this contribution) The Committee can now benefit from the correction provided by the Independent Labour Member on the C...

Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c34 (Link to this contribution) I—

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 727 c44-5 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the noble Lord and am grateful to him for giving way. He does not agree, clearly, tha...

Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c69 (Link to this contribution) My Lords I had not intended to speak on whether Clause 3 should stand part. However, I wanted to fol...