UK Parliament / Open data

Local Government Bill [HL]

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Wednesday, 14 July 2010, in the House of Lords.
Local Government Bill (HL). Lords committee stage first day. Clause 1 agreed to as amended. Clause 2 disagreed. Clause 3 agreed to. Bill reported with amendments (HL Bill 14 2010-12).

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

720 c685-733 

Session

2010-12

Department

Department for Communities and Local Government

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

Government defeats
New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Related items

Local Government Bill (HL). As amended in committee.
Wednesday, 14 July 2010
Bills
House of Lords
Local Government Bill (HL). Explanatory notes also published (HL Bill 2-EN).
Wednesday, 26 May 2010
Bills
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2010-1544
Monday, 23 August 2010
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Baroness Hanham | 720 c696 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not going to go any further into the impact assessment; it is there for noble Lords t...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c696 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, is the noble Baroness also going to tell the House about her own impact analysis of the sa...

Show all contributions (112)
Baroness Hanham | 720 c695-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank everybody who has spoken in this short debate on what I considered a slightly stra...
Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market | 720 c695 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, declare an interest as a resident of Norfolk for many years. We have had debates o...
Lord Burnett | 720 c694-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should declare that I live in Devon, I have a farm in Devon, and I own property also in ...
Baroness Shephard of Northwold | 720 c694 (Link to this contribution) That is as may be, but the Government’s own Boundary Committee produced another report on the Norwic...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c694 (Link to this contribution) The information submitted to Hazel Blears came from a Lib-Dem minority council.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c692-3 (Link to this contribution) This amendment calls for what this House, when it suits it, has called for on numerous occasions: po...
Baroness Shephard of Northwold | 720 c693-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to declare an interest: I am a lifelong resident of Norfolk. I have also been...
Lord Tope | 720 c691-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. If I recall,...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 720 c698-9 (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting debate. Not much of it has been focused on the specifics of the amendme...
Baroness Hanham | 720 c697 (Link to this contribution) That backs up exactly what I said which was that the orders were quashed. I do not have much more to...
Earl Cathcart | 720 c697 (Link to this contribution) The final paragraph, number 106, says: "““However, for the reasons which I have given””—" those are...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 720 c697 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can help the noble Lord. We have a copy of the judgment but what we do not have is a copy ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c696 (Link to this contribution) No, my Lords; that is not what the impact assessment said.
Baroness Hanham | 720 c696-7 (Link to this contribution) It looks as though it would be about six years before the savings came about. There have indeed been...
Earl Cathcart | 720 c697 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was not intending to speak on this amendment but I think that I have Mr Justice Ouseley’...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 720 c686-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 3. Before addressing the detail of these amendments, I sho...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 720 c685 (Link to this contribution) 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 6, leave out ““section”” and insert ““Act””
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 720 c689 (Link to this contribution) Is there not a danger that, if this amendment were passed, the noble Lord would place a particular d...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 720 c687-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before I speak to Amendment 3, perhaps I may apologise to the House for being unable to be...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 720 c690 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak to oppose these amendments. I first apologise for not attending the Second Reading...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 720 c689-90 (Link to this contribution) We were at very particular pains to draft these amendments and have benefited very much from the adv...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 720 c710 (Link to this contribution) If that is the noble Lord’s view, why on earth would he reject an amendment that calls for a report ...
Baroness Hanham | 720 c710 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall write to the Opposition with those costs.
Lord Rennard | 720 c710 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister agree that many of the potential savings that could have been made had the reorgan...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 720 c710 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for further intervening, but it is important that we have clarity on this point. Yes, th...
Baroness Hanham | 720 c709-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have made it clear that the gross costs are those that would have to be paid at the mome...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c709 (Link to this contribution) But we should be talking about the net costs. It is not fair to talk about costs without talking abo...
Baroness Hanham | 720 c709 (Link to this contribution) I refer to gross costs because that is what we are talking about.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c709 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister talk about the net costs as opposed to the gross costs, which she persists in prese...
Baroness Hanham | 720 c708-9 (Link to this contribution) There was spite and it was associated with me. None the less, there we are. This was about the cons...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c708 (Link to this contribution) I repeat that it was not personal. I said that the Bill was spiteful.
Lord Rennard | 720 c714 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Baroness accept that the High Court decided that the previous Government had behaved ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c714 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I certainly accept that the High Court judge has ruled that the proceedings of the Secreta...
Lord Rosser | 720 c711 (Link to this contribution) 4: After Clause 1, insert the following new Clause— ““Report on costs (1) The Secretary of State mus...
Baroness Hanham | 720 c711 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it was the process that was wrong. It was judicially reviewed and it was found to be flawe...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c713-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support my noble friend’s amendment on electoral provision. Norwich and Exeter have beha...
Lord Rosser | 720 c711-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, amendments in this House should not relate to the issue of who should be paying for what a...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c710 (Link to this contribution) The Minister’s statement is inconsistent with her letter of 8 July. I will write to her to that effe...
Baroness Hanham | 720 c710 (Link to this contribution) As I have said, the position is that the gross cost would be £40 million and the gross savings would...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 720 c710-1 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister comment on the point that my noble friend Lady Hollis was pursuing about unhappine...
Baroness Hanham | 720 c710 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think that I just said that. The savings would be about £6 million. However, savings can...
Viscount Eccles | 720 c702 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Is his argument that once Parliament has made a deci...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 720 c702 (Link to this contribution) On the contrary, that is exactly my argument. I have asked the noble Baroness why she is simply rely...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 720 c701 (Link to this contribution) Forgive me for rising again, but was not the decision made against the government department?
Lord Howarth of Newport | 720 c701-2 (Link to this contribution) The decision was made against the government department. Again, I gently point out to the noble and ...
Earl Cathcart | 720 c702 (Link to this contribution) I thought that it was for Parliament to make the laws and for the judiciary to judge on them. In thi...
Baroness Hanham | 720 c699 (Link to this contribution) 2: Clause 1, page 1, line 12, leave out subsection (3)
Lord Howarth of Newport | 720 c701 (Link to this contribution) Technically, the noble and learned Baroness is of course right. I just make two points in response. ...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 720 c701 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord see any difference in a judicial decision at whichever level? As I understand it...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 720 c700 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should have declared my interest as a resident of Norwich at the beginning of my contrib...
Baroness Hanham | 720 c699 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 7 and to my intention to oppose the Question that Clause 2...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 720 c706 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness said that the House decided to support the orders. The point is that the House di...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c706-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if I may put it delicately, the noble and learned Baroness misunderstands the import of he...
Baroness Hanham | 720 c708 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have strayed a long way from where we started. We have had a constitutional debate or a...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 720 c702-3 (Link to this contribution) I understand that that is what the judge said, but my question is whether it is within the competenc...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 720 c704 (Link to this contribution) I said that only in relation to these orders were they illegal, and they were found to be illegal af...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c704 (Link to this contribution) Before I address the substance of Amendment 2, which is what I really want to speak on, I want to ch...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 720 c705 (Link to this contribution) Is there not a distinction between conduct by the Minister in his capacity as head of a Whitehall de...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c705 (Link to this contribution) I understand that perfectly well, but as we did not have the outcome of the judicial review at the t...
Baroness Shephard of Northwold | 720 c714-5 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Baroness accept that the former Government were very well warned about the implicatio...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c715 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, such warnings had effectively occurred on all the previous JRs—I should note that the nobl...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c715-6 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Baroness is absolutely right that the Permanent Secretary followed this unusua...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 720 c716-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I add my support to the arguments made by my noble friends Lord Rosser and Lady Hollis on ...
Viscount Eccles | 720 c717 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. The amendment does not go to the point of ...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 720 c717 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lord Rosser has explained the statutory situation fairly compellingly. The...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 720 c717 (Link to this contribution) Following on from the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, perhaps I may ask what the point of this amendmen...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 720 c717 (Link to this contribution) Because we are trying to deal with the wreckage left behind by Mr Justice Ouseley. The judges can in...
Baroness O'Cathain | 720 c717 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for giving way. From listening to a lot of this debate, I rather understood t...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 720 c718 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness is entitled to her view. If the Government, who could do so, will not restore ord...
Baroness Shephard of Northwold | 720 c718 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the noble Lord for intervening again—he has accepted interventions with great grace—b...
Earl Cathcart | 720 c719 (Link to this contribution) So far, I have intervened twice without declaring my interests. I live in Norfolk, I have been a dis...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c719 (Link to this contribution) As this is Committee stage, not Report, perhaps the noble Earl would allow me to intervene. The poin...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 720 c718 (Link to this contribution) It is always a pleasure to take an intervention from the noble Baroness. She has held elected office...
Lord Rennard | 720 c718-9 (Link to this contribution) In our debate on the orders put forward on 22 March, I pointed out that the only effect of approving...
Baroness Hanham | 720 c720 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we had quite a round robin of a debate on this amendment. I agree with my noble friends th...
Lord Rosser | 720 c721 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, issues have been raised about the wording of the amendment. I said at the beginning of my ...
Earl Cathcart | 720 c719-20 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness makes a good point, but that is not what the amendment says. It says only that th...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c720 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may comment on what the noble Earl has said. I ask the indulgence of the House, ...
Baroness Hayman | 720 c721 (Link to this contribution) The Question is that Clause 2 stand part of the Bill. It was spoken to in an earlier group. As many ...
Baroness Hayman | 720 c722 (Link to this contribution) As many of that opinion will say Content.
Baroness Hayman | 720 c722 (Link to this contribution) I remind the House that the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, has given notice of her intention to oppose...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c722 (Link to this contribution) 5: Clause 3, page 2, line 43, leave out subsection (2) and insert— ““(2) Subject to subsection (2A) ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c722-6 (Link to this contribution) We come to the final pair of amendments today, Amendments 5 and 6. That brings us back to the issue ...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 720 c726 (Link to this contribution) In opposing these amendments, I shall give a slightly different perspective. I am not in a position ...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 720 c726-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak in support of Amendments 5 and 6. They must surely meet with the Government’s approval...
Earl Cathcart | 720 c728 (Link to this contribution) We may be splitting hairs, but he lives in outer Norwich. In any case, I think that there is city co...
Baroness Shephard of Northwold | 720 c728 (Link to this contribution) Does my noble friend not agree that the force of this amendment is to ask the Government to get Norw...
Earl Cathcart | 720 c728 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will try to stick to the amendments rather than be tempted into going off at tangents. A...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c728 (Link to this contribution) The Bowthorpe councillor speaks, basically, for the south Norfolk area, which is not the Norwich Cit...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c730-1 (Link to this contribution) Forgive me, but that does not affect my point. If I misheard the noble and learned Baroness, I apolo...
Baroness Hanham | 720 c729-30 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank my noble friends Lord Rennard and Lord Cathcart for virtually winding up this deba...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c730 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for contributing to the debate. Perhaps I may run briefly through ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 720 c729 (Link to this contribution) I will speak only briefly on this issue, given the time and the important business that is due to fo...
Lord Rennard | 720 c729 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, these amendments contain worthy aims about co-operation between the councils concerned—som...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c731-2 (Link to this contribution) I can only say that that is not the view that I or my other friends have been given by senior member...
Viscount Eccles | 720 c732 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for giving way. I think that what she is suggesting is to pass an unenfor...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c732 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, no one has asked the Committee to make a judgment on this, so I think that the noble Visco...
Baroness Hanham | 720 c732 (Link to this contribution) As I said, there has been a barrage of questions about Norwich today. Councils will be required, fir...
Lord Burnett | 720 c731 (Link to this contribution) My law firm has offices in Exeter. I know Exeter well and a lot of the time I work there. The noble ...
Baroness Hanham | 720 c732 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness asks the question again. This is entirely a matter between Norwich and Norfolk Co...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c733 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for her response. I hope that she is right and that there will not be com...
Baroness Hanham | 720 c733 (Link to this contribution) 7: In the Title, line 2, leave out from ““2007”” to end of line 5 Amendment 7 agreed. House resume...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 720 c715 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness rightly reminded me that I was not in the House during the period covering all ei...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c732 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Baroness support us when we seek from the county council the information the city nee...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 720 c705-6 (Link to this contribution) I entirely accept that. In the same way that if any Minister—myself in a former capacity, my noble f...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 720 c703-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I might be allowed to speak before the Minister replies. I start by bringing us ba...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 720 c730 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for allowing me to interrupt. If I said ““county councillor””, t...

Subjects

Councillors
Costs
Devon
Elections
Judgements
District councils
Exeter
Local government
Local government finance
Local government services
Norfolk
Norwich
Reorganisation
Unitary councils
Suffolk
Norfolk County Council
Norwich City Council

Legislation

Local Government Bill (HL) 2010-12

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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