UK Parliament / Open data

UK Borders Bill

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Wednesday, 18 July 2007, in the House of Lords.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

694 c55-114GC 

Session

2006-07

Department

Home Office

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Related items

UK Borders Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 68-EN also published.
Thursday, 10 May 2007
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Hylton | 694 c61-2GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister say whether I am correct that Section 9 was applied only in three areas to a small...
Lord Avebury | 694 c68GC (Link to this contribution) It does not matter whether it is one person or 10,000 who is made destitute. For the purposes of tha...

Show all contributions (146)
Lord Avebury | 694 c108GC (Link to this contribution) Did the Minister say that there was an intention to go ahead with dental X-rays, because Lin Homer s...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c108GC (Link to this contribution) I will move on. I certainly understand that there are concerns about proposals in our recent consult...
Lord Avebury | 694 c112GC (Link to this contribution) That will be in time for Report stage. Meanwhile, I refer to the comments made by the Children’s Com...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c112GC (Link to this contribution) I say for the record that, yes, ethical considerations were included in the consultation and we rece...
Lord Avebury | 694 c110-1GC (Link to this contribution) First, there is no argument between us about the necessity for having as reliable a procedure for de...
Lord Goodhart | 694 c102GC (Link to this contribution) I accept that there should be a cut-off point because of the nature of the rights that existed befor...
Lord Goodhart | 694 c103GC (Link to this contribution) I certainly agree. As I understand it, we are due to start Report in the first week after the Recess...
Lord Avebury | 694 c78-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 36B: 36B: Clause 20, page 12, line 12, at end insert— ““(2B) In making regulat...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 694 c84GC (Link to this contribution) I know all that. I am talking about specific universities to which students have applied and to whic...
Lord Avebury | 694 c55-8GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 34: 34: After Clause 17, insert the following new Clause— ““Withdrawal of supp...
Lord Roberts of Llandudno | 694 c58-60GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend Lord Avebury’s amendment. I suggest that it is time that the Government we...
Earl of Listowel | 694 c60GC (Link to this contribution) I offer my very strongest support to the amendment proposed by the noble Lords, Lord Avebury and Lor...
Earl of Listowel | 694 c61GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister, and I apologise for not making myself clear. The point that I was trying to ma...
Earl of Listowel | 694 c61GC (Link to this contribution) That is the same judgment that fails in 20 per cent of cases. At the initial stage, a decision is ma...
Lord Roberts of Llandudno | 694 c65GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. Perhaps we can consider two families: one to be repatriated to, let u...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c65-6GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Lord would permit me to say this: it is extremely unwise to exchange and trade cas...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c64-5GC (Link to this contribution) I had not envisaged that we would spend quite so long on this amendment as we have. We went through ...
Lord Dholakia | 694 c66GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may help the Minister on this matter. A little while ago, he said that further guidance wo...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c66GC (Link to this contribution) I am always reluctant to give absolute guarantees because there can always be other cases. I return ...
Lord Avebury | 694 c67-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to all those who have taken part in this debate which, the Minister will agree, h...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c68GC (Link to this contribution) I beg to differ. I accept that there are occasional hard cases. In the case that the noble Lord is d...
Earl of Listowel | 694 c67GC (Link to this contribution) Probably it will be as a matter of course that this will be in the guidance, but it would be interes...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c68GC (Link to this contribution) I am not trying to excuse it; far from it. When we have these debates, we must be a bit more forensi...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c71-3GC (Link to this contribution) When I was looking at the amendments, I felt more warmth than sympathy to this one than I did to the...
Earl of Sandwich | 694 c71GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister asked for more pertinent arguments, and we have heard a very pertinent argument from th...
Lord Hylton | 694 c71GC (Link to this contribution) Given that many applicants are not legally represented, and that many applicants have not had legal ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c73GC (Link to this contribution) I had almost finished my peroration, such as it is, before the Division. I was trying to respond to ...
Lord Haskel | 694 c113GC (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, want to debate the Question that Clause 21 stand part?
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c112GC (Link to this contribution) We are getting close to the cut-off time. We consulted and we have heard their comments, so we are w...
Lord Avebury | 694 c110GC (Link to this contribution) I think that the noble Lord gave figures for the years up to 2005. As he knows, the immigration stat...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c108GC (Link to this contribution) That is fine. There still seems to be a slight contradiction, but I will move on.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 694 c106-7GC (Link to this contribution) As a magistrate who has had to sit through many training sessions for paediatricians and who has gai...
Lord Avebury | 694 c104-5GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord may say that, but in the consultation document on the process of age determination, t...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c112GC (Link to this contribution) They will be published by the end of August.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 694 c111-2GC (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to intervene, but I must, even though I know we are to finish dead on a quarter to eight....
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 694 c111GC (Link to this contribution) I know that the noble Lord has a great technical grasp of these matters, but I was arguing that paed...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c91GC (Link to this contribution) I am more than happy to give the noble Lord that assurance, if he feels that there are outstanding i...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c99GC (Link to this contribution) I made the point that the legacy that most of us now consider to be repugnant or otiose is one that ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c100GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure it is possible to answer in those terms. I return to the point that there is a difficu...
Lord Avebury | 694 c100GC (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister explain how someone who is born immediately before 7 February 1961 has no connectio...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c101GC (Link to this contribution) Reflecting on that question is important. I think we probably had in mind a wide range of circumstan...
Lord Higgins | 694 c101-2GC (Link to this contribution) I feel bound to say that that really is not good enough. We asked whether there was some hidden agen...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c102GC (Link to this contribution) Am I right in thinking that, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, acc...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c76GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is probably right on his second point—I shall think about it a bit more; he may be ri...
Lord Henley | 694 c76GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 36: 36: Clause 19, page 11, line 30, at end insert— ““(6) The Secretary of Sta...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c77GC (Link to this contribution) The arguments have not moved on greatly since that consideration. I listened very carefully to what ...
Lord Avebury | 694 c75GC (Link to this contribution) We were grateful to the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, for the letter of 22 June explain...
Lord Avebury | 694 c74-5GC (Link to this contribution) The point raised by the noble Baroness was by way of example and was maybe not unique. Documents tha...
Lord Roberts of Llandudno | 694 c79-80GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend’s amendment. What is the basis for the increase from £350 to £750? It is a...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c78GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 36A: 36A: Clause 19, page 11, line 30, at end insert— ““(3) In section 106(2) ...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 694 c85GC (Link to this contribution) I do not want to go on with this, but I asked the Minister whether universities have to pay the fees...
Lord Avebury | 694 c84GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy, may be thinking of the situation that used to be prevalent, whereb...
Lord Henley | 694 c84-5GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, talked about students having to do 20 hours a week. I am not sure that...
Viscount Simon | 694 c55GC (Link to this contribution) If there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn as soon as th...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c60-1GC (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to interrupt the noble Earl’s flow, but Section 9 does not apply during the early part of...
Earl of Sandwich | 694 c62GC (Link to this contribution) I spoke in favour of the amendment in a sense when I spoke to the last group of amendments on a prev...
Lord Roberts of Llandudno | 694 c65GC (Link to this contribution) How will a family which is to be deported because it has failed in every way to stay in this country...
Lord Avebury | 694 c66GC (Link to this contribution) The point I was trying to elucidate earlier was a more general one. Zimbabwe is an illustration of i...
Lord Haskel | 694 c114GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until Monday.
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c114GC (Link to this contribution) I think—I was almost going to say that we have had enough—that this might be a convenient moment for...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c110GC (Link to this contribution) I certainly undertake to find as current data as we possibly can. The noble Lord may be right; I do ...
Lord Avebury | 694 c107-8GC (Link to this contribution) No, I did not. I suggested sufficiently developed statutory guidance along the lines of the Hillingd...
Lord Avebury | 694 c108GC (Link to this contribution) There is no contradiction at all.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 694 c106GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Has he also looked at evidence that is adduced in fa...
Lord Roberts of Llandudno | 694 c107GC (Link to this contribution) I accept the evidence that the noble Baroness presents to the Committee. In Ethiopia—not today—and i...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c107GC (Link to this contribution) This is carrying on a debate that we had in another forum, although the debate in Question Time in t...
Lord Avebury | 694 c103GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 43: 43: After Clause 20, insert the following new Clause— ““Immigration contro...
Lord Roberts of Llandudno | 694 c106GC (Link to this contribution) X-raying anyone is an easy way to assess people, but you can jump to conclusions by taking the easy ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 694 c105-6GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, is referring to when the then right honourable and later my noble frie...
Lord Avebury | 694 c111GC (Link to this contribution) I would like to know whether any special notice was taken of ethical considerations. Not long ago, w...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c89-91GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, who makes a good case. I listened to his argument with g...
Lord Hylton | 694 c89GC (Link to this contribution) I realise that the amendment is technically about appeals. Nevertheless, it provides an opportunity ...
Lord Avebury | 694 c88-9GC (Link to this contribution) On 30 March the Home Office issued APU Notice 3/2007, entitled ““Amendment to Discretionary Leave Po...
Lord Goodhart | 694 c92-4GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 42: 42: After Clause 20, insert the following new Clause— ““Children of Female...
Lord Higgins | 694 c96-8GC (Link to this contribution) I have added my name to the amendment, which seems to me entirely admirable. The arguments put forwa...
Lord Higgins | 694 c99GC (Link to this contribution) Could the noble Lord say that again?
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c98-9GC (Link to this contribution) That is interesting in itself. I found this a fascinating discussion. I have listened to the debate ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 694 c98GC (Link to this contribution) When my noble friend Lord Higgins speaks it takes me back to when he was such a brilliant member of ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c98GC (Link to this contribution) I was hoping that I might hear from the Conservative Front Bench on this amendment.
Lord Goodhart | 694 c100GC (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister explain why, if the Government are concerned to limit the right of entry to this co...
Lord Higgins | 694 c101GC (Link to this contribution) I would be inclined to adopt a rather simpler approach than my noble friend. The Minister has not ex...
Lord Higgins | 694 c102GC (Link to this contribution) I am trying to understand the noble Lord’s point. Why do we have to have a cut-off point now?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 694 c103GC (Link to this contribution) The Chairman was a little swift for me, as was the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, who was being succinct...
Lord Goodhart | 694 c103GC (Link to this contribution) I am glad to hear that, and I hope that rationality will duly prevail. I beg leave to withdraw the a...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c75GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 34A: 34A: Clause 19, page 11, leave out lines 28 to 30 The noble Lord said: A...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 694 c75GC (Link to this contribution) My Amendment No. 35 appears in this group. As the Lord Chairman remarked, it is pre-empted by Amendm...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c74GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her comments. I understand the tease; different policy, diff...
Lord Avebury | 694 c82-3GC (Link to this contribution) We have been diverted into a discussion about previous fees that were set under the order that has a...
Lord Henley | 694 c78GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for the assurance that there will be fewer Bills from the Home Office,...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c85GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has asked for more information. It might assist the Committee if I ask the offici...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 694 c83GC (Link to this contribution) It seems that large numbers of overseas students who apply to go to university are accepted and then...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c83-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am not briefed on all aspects of visa applicants or the fees that are charged, although I believe ...
Lord Henley | 694 c84GC (Link to this contribution) May I add to what my noble friend has just said?
Lord Avebury | 694 c84GC (Link to this contribution) I need to answer that point. The noble Baroness will recall that, in earlier legislation, we also ob...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c65GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord asked a question, which I respect him for asking, and which requires a precise respon...
Lord Dholakia | 694 c62-4GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend Lord Avebury’s brilliant analysis of the situation on Section 9. This is n...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c66GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can help the noble Lord. He has been very helpful in getting us back to more sensible terr...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c67GC (Link to this contribution) Of course all those considerations have to apply. There will obviously be discussions with senior ca...
Lord Dholakia | 694 c66GC (Link to this contribution) All I was asking for was to have sight of the code of practice before Report stage, so we know how t...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c66GC (Link to this contribution) We do not have any difficulty with that.
Lord Avebury | 694 c68GC (Link to this contribution) Okay, let us be forensic and deliberate, and challenge the Minister to say—which he has not, in resp...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c68GC (Link to this contribution) It may well be the case that they are dealt with by other provisions. But I make the point that ther...
Lord Avebury | 694 c69-70GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 34ZA: 34ZA: Clause 19, page 11, line 18, leave out ““, and at the time of maki...
Lord Avebury | 694 c69GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister has reinforced my opinion that we should get rid of this clause. If we are only talking...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c69GC (Link to this contribution) I am reluctant to accept the noble Earl’s words, because I would not necessarily recognise the descr...
Earl of Listowel | 694 c69GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, stands up, I want to clarify this. Can the Minister help me to ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 694 c71GC (Link to this contribution) I beg the Chairman’s pardon; I thought that the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, had risen to speak. He ma...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 694 c73-4GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, responds, perhaps I may say that I am grateful to the Minister ...
Lord Avebury | 694 c112-3GC (Link to this contribution) Then why cannot the noble Lord produce those opinions? Let us hear them. It is getting a bit late; w...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c108-10GC (Link to this contribution) I used the term ““proposal””, which does not contradict what the noble Lord said that Lin Homer had ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c108GC (Link to this contribution) Oh I see. I had misunderstood, or perhaps misheard, what the noble Lord said. So the noble Lord want...
Lord Roberts of Llandudno | 694 c106GC (Link to this contribution) The evidence that the noble Baroness mentioned is not 100 per cent accepted. For instance, it is not...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c104GC (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the noble Lord for circulating the document, which has been around since 1981. No one...
Lord Avebury | 694 c112GC (Link to this contribution) I am glad to hear that and I would like to see the responses. They should have been published by now...
Lord Avebury | 694 c111GC (Link to this contribution) What the noble Baroness said about the use of dental X-rays in family courts was news to me. I hope ...
Lord Avebury | 694 c85-6GC (Link to this contribution) I was in the process of winding up, and I hope that we can bring this matter to a conclusion. Before...
Lord Judd | 694 c91GC (Link to this contribution) That is a constructive and helpful response from the Minister. On the understanding that we shall be...
Lord Judd | 694 c91GC (Link to this contribution) As I have said before in our deliberations, I have no alternative but to withdraw the amendment in t...
Lord Judd | 694 c87-8GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 41: 41: After Clause 20, insert the following new Clause— ““Appeal rights In s...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c86-7GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 37: 37: After Clause 20, insert the following new Clause— ““Children (1) The S...
Lord Avebury | 694 c94-6GC (Link to this contribution) I warmly congratulate my noble friend Lord Goodhart on his ingenuity in bringing what is effectively...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 694 c98GC (Link to this contribution) I have carefully avoided saying just that.
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c98GC (Link to this contribution) I take it from that that the noble Baroness agrees with all that the noble Lord said, and that it is...
Lord Higgins | 694 c99GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord could come to it now.
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c99-100GC (Link to this contribution) I think the noble Lord is trying to help me to get to the point. There will always be a difficulty w...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c100-1GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is asking me to describe the basis of the original discrimination. We accept that tha...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 694 c101GC (Link to this contribution) We are all struggling to hear from the Minister the virtue that attaches to 1961. If he were able to...
Lord Goodhart | 694 c102GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I should start by talking about the cut-off point. I tried to explain earlier in my speech w...
Lord Goodhart | 694 c102GC (Link to this contribution) I would be very happy if I thought that the circumstances made it plainly desirable to dispense with...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c103GC (Link to this contribution) First, rule number one is never look a gift horse in the mouth. Secondly, I have heard all sides of ...
Lord Avebury | 694 c76-7GC (Link to this contribution) There was an interesting discussion on a very similar amendment in the Public Bill Committee on 15 M...
Lord Brougham and Vaux | 694 c75GC (Link to this contribution) If Amendment No. 34A is agreed to I cannot call Amendment No. 35 due to pre-emption.
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c83GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord challenges us over universities. I am prepared to accept that there might be somethin...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c80-2GC (Link to this contribution) We have had an interesting short debate, covering monogamy, passport personal interview centres, rep...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 694 c77GC (Link to this contribution) It is a bit difficult to do that because it would depend on the details of the implementation timeta...
Lord Henley | 694 c77GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his response. He told us that the arguments have not moved on, but...
Lord Hylton | 694 c80GC (Link to this contribution) I follow the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno. Do the figures quoted by the nob...
Lord Avebury | 694 c85GC (Link to this contribution) Far be it from me to come to the defence of Minister—that is not my job. This question is a long way...

Subjects

Children
Codes of practice
Appeals
Asylum
Age
British nationality
Fees and charges
Immigration
Iraq
Migrants
Overseas students
Young people
Refugees
X-rays
Afghanistan
Sudan
Zimbabwe
Darfur
Democratic Republic of Congo
Somalia
Age assurance

Legislation

UK Borders Bill 2006-07

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
Back to top