Pensions Bill. Lords Report stage first day. Part 1 of 2 records.
Pensions Bill
Debate on bills on Wednesday, 4 July 2007,
in the House of Lords.
The answering
member was Lord McKenzie of Luton.
About these Parliamentary proceedings
Reference
693 c1027-88Session
2006-07Legislative stage
Report stageChamber / Committee
House of Lords chamberRelated items
Proceeding contributions
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 693 c1083-4 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 9:
9: Schedule 1, page 38, line 40, at end insert—
““19A In each of paragraphs...
Lord Skelmersdale | 693 c1083 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving a much fuller reply than my activities on the pre...
Show all contributions (90)
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 693 c1081-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for giving us the opportunity to discuss the im...
Baroness Noakes | 693 c1088 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the Minister will get no better response from me today than he got last time, which was th...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 693 c1088 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I do not believe that I said that. I said that the fiscal backdrop is clearly one consider...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 693 c1087 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the Minister said that it was for Ministers to take decisions in the light of other advice...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 693 c1087-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I imagine that they have a range of advice. I was not the Minister involved at that time a...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 693 c1086 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this is a significant amendment, which we support. The Government should not keep a dog an...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 693 c1086-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for this amendment. We had a preliminary discussion on this mat...
Baroness Noakes | 693 c1088 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the only consideration that the Government could have taken into account to arrive at thei...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 693 c1051-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, is feeling fed up. I hope that my comme...
Lord Skelmersdale | 693 c1052 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will certainly withdraw the amendment, but it was not the fact of secondary legislation ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 693 c1046-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, first I thank very sincerely everyone who has taken part today. As my noble friend accepte...
Lord Skelmersdale | 693 c1050 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 3:
3: Clause 3, page 3, leave out lines 28 to 33
The noble Lord said: My Lord...
Lord McIntosh of Haringey | 693 c1046 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this follows directly from the point that my noble friend was making. He said that he is v...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 693 c1046 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am very happy to share the data I have with the House before Third Reading. Inevitably, ...
Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde | 693 c1055 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, support Amendments Nos. 4 and 6. The Pensions Commission considered the matter and...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 693 c1054-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, some of us believe that the contributory principle is on its last legs because of the comp...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 693 c1053-4 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 4:
4: Clause 5, page 6, line 22, at end insert—
““( ) For the purposes of any ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 693 c1053 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I await the letter with interest. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment....
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 693 c1059 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, does my noble friend accept that the evidence suggests that many people are not on the reg...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 693 c1059-60 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, that person at the moment can acquire a full basic state pension through the contributory ...
Baroness Greengross | 693 c1055 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support the amendment. It relates to the principle that we have in this country, and whi...
Lord Skelmersdale | 693 c1055-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in introducing the amendment, the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, said words to the effect th...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 693 c1056-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it is slightly worrying to find myself on the same side as the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersda...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 693 c1058-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his full and thoughtful reply. However, I was slightl...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 693 c1060-3 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 5:
5: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause—
““Independent Pensions ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 693 c1060 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right to qualify that. I made it clear in my opening stateme...
Baroness Greengross | 693 c1064 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am pleased to add my name to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, for two re...
Lord Fowler | 693 c1063-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have added my name to the amendment and I am glad to support my Seaview neighbour. I sha...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 693 c1060 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt. That statistic refers to people who did not move house. We need t...
Lord Skelmersdale | 693 c1066 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, perhaps I may say to the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, that although we are debating these ...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 693 c1066-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am particularly grateful to hear that. I am certainly in favour of the idea of the Indep...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 693 c1064-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support the amendment. I explained briefly at Second Reading why I favour the principle ...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 693 c1065-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am sure that Amendment No. 5 is well intentioned. However, I query whether it is really ...
Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market | 693 c1067-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I too wish to support Amendment No. 5. I suspect that Amendment No. 4 will be subsumed und...
Lord Turner of Ecchinswell | 693 c1070-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I should like to say some words in support of both amendments. The idea of an Independent ...
Lord Turnbull | 693 c1068-70 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I regret to have to differ with the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, as I share one of the con...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 693 c1074 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry, my Lords. The figure is £1.5 million.
Lord Fowler | 693 c1074 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, £1.5 million.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 693 c1074 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have discussed the topics covered by these amendments before, but it has been helpful t...
Lord Skelmersdale | 693 c1072-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, is not that exactly the point? The facts are what we do not know and the reason why the Go...
Lord Turner of Ecchinswell | 693 c1074 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, if it was indeed £1.5 billion, I should like to know where my per diems went.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 693 c1074-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we fear that if we were to set up such a body it would rather act as a destabilising influ...
Lord Fowler | 693 c1076 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, I understood his argument at the beginning to be that an ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 693 c1076-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, there is an automatic engagement with the effect of reforms and the review of what is happ...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 693 c1077-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. Apart from the Front-Benchers, every speaker was ...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 693 c1078 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I agree. I do not particularly like them, but all we are doing is politically or in other ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 693 c1078 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, if the noble Lord will allow me, I was saying that the figures the Government are publishi...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 693 c1078 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, that is a different point. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness for her good work over many...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 693 c1078 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for giving way. We have had a variety of pensions bodies—the Occupa...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 693 c1081 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this seems a very reasonable request on a very important topic.
Lord Skelmersdale | 693 c1080-1 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 7:
7: After Clause 13, insert the following new Clause—
““Report on employment...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 693 c1027-9 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 2:
2: Clause 1, page 2, line 36, at end insert—
““( ) With effect from the com...
Lord Dearing | 693 c1030-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I rise diffidently to speak on this issue, but I am fortified by having read the nine-page...
Baroness O'Cathain | 693 c1029-30 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I wholeheartedly support the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, in all the work on fairness that...
Baroness Shephard of Northwold | 693 c1031-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, for her e...
Baroness Greengross | 693 c1031 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, has been extremely eloquent and I want to add only a few wor...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 693 c1032-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, has said, if we are going to keep the contributory pri...
Lord Turnbull | 693 c1037-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, having worked in the Treasury for more than 30 years, four years as Permanent Secretary, I...
Lord Fowler | 693 c1036-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have just heard a very significant speech, because the noble Lord has spent a great dea...
Lord Turner of Ecchinswell | 693 c1035-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support the amendment. We on the Pensions Commission had two concerns about the state pe...
Baroness Miller of Hendon | 693 c1035 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall be brief, because every point of the amendment, with all its faults and deficienci...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 693 c1034-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my noble friend has drawn attention to a palpable deficiency and a notorious injustice in ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 693 c1034 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, who looks slightly surprised, ...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 693 c1033-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it is important that as many noble Lords as possible speak in favour of the amendment in o...
Baroness Lockwood | 693 c1033 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I hope that my noble friend the Minister will be able to accept the amendment tabled by my...
Lord Barnett | 693 c1039-40 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, could I have a word with the House? There is probably nobody else here who has stopped as ...
Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market | 693 c1038-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I hesitate to follow the remarks of my noble friend Lord Fowler about the Treasury because...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 693 c1042-4 (Link to this contribution)
Genuinely, my Lords; this is a very important issue. I also acknowledge my noble friend’s tenacity a...
Lord Higgins | 693 c1040 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I intervene briefly to make a point that no one else has made. In 1964, my maiden speech i...
Lord Barnett | 693 c1040 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it can only be the Treasury that wants the Minister to try to stop the amendment, and I ho...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 693 c1040 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this has been an excellent debate and the mood of the House is clear. I am not sure whethe...
Lord Graham of Edmonton | 693 c1040 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I stumbled into this debate and stayed riveted until the end. I cannot conceive of an argu...
Lord Skelmersdale | 693 c1041 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, has just said, the Minister and I stand in a rather dif...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 693 c1041 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I came in specifically for this amendment because it is so important. Following the advice...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 693 c1041 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I start by thanking my noble friend for giving us a further opportunity to debate—
Lord Higgins | 693 c1041 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I do not think that that is what I said.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey | 693 c1046 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, before my noble friend sits down—
Lord Filkin | 693 c1045 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, would we not be supporting my noble friend in his endeavour to get a proper solution to th...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 693 c1045 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, they are both. They do not have to be British citizens who have moved abroad. The rule is ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 693 c1044 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I apologise for interrupting the Minister. Are those living abroad whom he refers to, who ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 693 c1044 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I understand the reaction. Serious work has been done and continues to be done on that. It...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 693 c1045 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this House should be about trying to, if it feels it appropriate, pass proper amendments t...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 693 c1084 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendments Nos. 10 and 11:
10: Clause 14, page 19, line 26, leave out from ““conversion”” to...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 693 c1088 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I beg to move that consideration on Report be now adjourned. In moving the Motion, I sugge...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 693 c1053 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have to be clear that the review needs to be undertaken in a very considered and consul...
Baroness Noakes | 693 c1084-6 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 12:
12: After Clause 14, insert the following new Clause—
““Review and alterat...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 693 c1045-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I apologise for not dealing with that. The numbers that I quoted are net of that. I have a...
Lord McIntosh of Haringey | 693 c1045 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, will my noble friend address the benefit to the Exchequer of a reduction in the cost of me...
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