UK Parliament / Open data

Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill

Debate on bills on Tuesday, 22 May 2007, in the House of Commons, led by Phil Woolas. The answering member was Alistair Burt.

Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill. Report stage second day. New clause 1 agreed to. New clause 4, discussed with new clauses 5 and 6, agreed to. New clauses 5 and 6 agreed to. New clause 22, discussed with new clauses 23 to 28 and new schedule 3, agreed to. New clauses 23 to 28 agreed to. New clause 36, discussed with new clauses 37 to 55, 62, agreed to. New clauses 37 to 55 agreed to. New clause 56, discussed with new clauses 57 to 60, 63, agreed to. New clauses 57 to 60, 62, agreed to. New clauses 34 and 64 negatived on division. New schedules 1, 2, 3 agreed to. Third reading debate. Agreed to on division (260 votes to 180) and Bill passed.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

460 c1135-250

Session

2006-07

Proceeding contributions

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 460 c1136-7 (Link to this contribution) New clause 1 amends part 1 of the Local Government Act 2000, which concerns the promotion of social,...

Speaker | 460 c1136 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments No. 56 and 58.

Show all contributions (161)

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 460 c1136 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Hywel Williams | 460 c1137 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the opportunity to agree with the Government and celebrate the outbreak of fraternity and ...

Alistair Burt | 460 c1137 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the Minister and thank her for that brief explanation of the amendments. When we asked her...

Tom Levitt | 460 c1143 (Link to this contribution) If I have interpreted the amendment correctly, it proposes that if a council holds a referendum on a...

Michael Fabricant | 460 c1141-2 (Link to this contribution) I am following my hon. Friend’s logic with considerable interest. Does he understand whether the pro...

Robert Syms | 460 c1142 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the Minister will pick up that point later. It is clear that the Government have moved on th...

Michael Fabricant | 460 c1142-3 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend accept that the concept of one man—or, indeed, one woman—for one ward has a cert...

Robert Syms | 460 c1143 (Link to this contribution) The first-past-the-post system—particularly the single-Member first-past-the-post system—is the simp...

Speaker | 460 c1139 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 5—Duty of local aut...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 460 c1139 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Robert Syms | 460 c1141 (Link to this contribution) I have always rather liked single-member electoral areas for reasons that the Minister has suggested...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 460 c1139-40 (Link to this contribution) New clause 4 would give councils greater flexibility about the arrangements of their wards or divisi...

Lord Stunell | 460 c1148 (Link to this contribution) The communication was dated 9 May and it had not occurred to me that the information was not already...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 460 c1148 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising the matter. I certainly do not suggest that he shoul...

Lord Stunell | 460 c1145-6 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman, who is a close geographical neighbour of mine, is absolutely wrong, because whet...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 460 c1146-8 (Link to this contribution) The champagne moment has passed. We have had an interesting discussion and I was pleased by the rea...

Tom Levitt | 460 c1145 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman believe that the Government were right to postpone the 2005 county council e...

Lord Stunell | 460 c1145 (Link to this contribution) Things would be a great deal easier for the Government and the Conservatives if there were proportio...

Andrew Gwynne | 460 c1144 (Link to this contribution) I agree, although I must add that the hon. Gentleman’s friend probably lost handsomely in Stalybridg...

Michael Fabricant | 460 c1144 (Link to this contribution) I was on a narrow boat last weekend, and one of my companions was Clive Patrick who stood for the Co...

Andrew Gwynne | 460 c1143-4 (Link to this contribution) First, I declare an interest as a member of Tameside metropolitan borough council. I am flattered th...

Robert Syms | 460 c1143 (Link to this contribution) It is a probing amendment; it is not meant to be perfect legislation. People become used to a partic...

Michael Fabricant | 460 c1152 (Link to this contribution) There is only one thing that slightly concerns me. If we are going to broaden the definition of orga...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1152-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that point. My intention and belief is that the meas...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1150 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Phil Woolas | 460 c1150 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the opportunity to table these amendments. I beg the indulgence of the hon. Member...

Speaker | 460 c1150 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 23—Trusts. Governm...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1151 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman said that he was grateful for my giving way. I am grateful to him for intervening...

Michael Fabricant | 460 c1151 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. He quite rightly says that local councils are propriet...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1151-2 (Link to this contribution) We have four hours. In the spirit of consensus, I have brought a copy of the document with me for th...

Michael Fabricant | 460 c1151 (Link to this contribution) If you go too fast, you may need to.

Michael Fabricant | 460 c1155 (Link to this contribution) Do not tell the Minister that.

Alistair Burt | 460 c1155 (Link to this contribution) This is not a plea for the Minister to read more of that enlightening document. The hon. Gentleman e...

Neil Turner | 460 c1155 (Link to this contribution) The Minister might have inadvertently misled the House at the start of his speech. He indicated that...

Alistair Burt | 460 c1155 (Link to this contribution) ““Don’t tell him, Pike.”” I will definitely conceal that we will not be pressing the measures to a D...

Lord Stunell | 460 c1155 (Link to this contribution) I realise that we are running the serious risk of the Minister invoking his threat and reading the w...

Michael Fabricant | 460 c1157 (Link to this contribution) That is an important point. I am rather alarmed that my hon. Friend, who is a barrister or a solicit...

Robert Neill | 460 c1156 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend give way?

Michael Fabricant | 460 c1155-6 (Link to this contribution) Following that brilliant speech, I do not know whether I can do justice to the debate. However, I wa...

Robert Neill | 460 c1156-7 (Link to this contribution) I now regret asking my hon. Friend to give way. Perhaps he could help me or ask the Minister to help...

Michael Fabricant | 460 c1156 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is a lawyer, so perhaps he will tell me whether ““connected with”” has some legal mea...

Michael Fabricant | 460 c1166 (Link to this contribution) Has the Minister, in his extensive reading or in the research that his Department does on his behalf...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1166-7 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting point. The Government’s central intention in introducing the measures is to d...

Michael Fabricant | 460 c1167 (Link to this contribution) The Minister’s argument is interesting. Would he go further and say that although proposed changes a...

Michael Fabricant | 460 c1159 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that. He is talking about cases in which there could be liability. Let me g...

Robert Syms | 460 c1159 (Link to this contribution) A theatre.

Michael Fabricant | 460 c1159 (Link to this contribution) Such as a theatre, as my hon. Friend suggests, although the Lichfield Garrick is not that type of or...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1159 (Link to this contribution) That would depend on the nature of the contract between the local authority and the body. That is an...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1164 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Speaker | 460 c1164 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 37—Resolution for wh...

Speaker | 460 c1158 (Link to this contribution) Order. We have had some levity, but I think that we had better get back to the amendments before the...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1158 (Link to this contribution) I think that where there is unanimity is that the House will remember the contribution by my hon. Fr...

Tom Levitt | 460 c1158 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend think it appropriate, given that it was an intervention by my hon. Friend the Me...

Robert Neill | 460 c1157 (Link to this contribution) I never did this sort of work.

Michael Fabricant | 460 c1157 (Link to this contribution) At least not without payment. It is fascinating that the heading of new clause 22, ““Entities contr...

Robert Neill | 460 c1157-8 (Link to this contribution) I shall be very brief. First, I assure my hon. Friend that if he wants a definition of ““fraudulent”...

Alison Seabeck | 460 c1157 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could ask the Minister whether there is a legal definition of ““connected...

Speaker | 460 c1157 (Link to this contribution) Order. I think that the hon. Member will have the opportunity to ask the Minister directly.

Robert Neill | 460 c1172 (Link to this contribution) That does not mean that I am going to volunteer, on behalf of West Ham United, to make any change in...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1174 (Link to this contribution) That is a point often made to me by the cross-party leaders of the 10 authorities in Greater Manches...

Michael Fabricant | 460 c1173 (Link to this contribution) This argument is interesting to me, because I do not come from a local government background. Would ...

Robert Neill | 460 c1173 (Link to this contribution) I am genuinely grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that interesting point, which had not occurred...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1173-4 (Link to this contribution) If members of the press or the public were ever to doubt that Members of Parliament know what they a...

Lord Stunell | 460 c1174 (Link to this contribution) As the Minister and I know, on the past three occasions our fallow year in Greater Manchester has be...

Speaker | 460 c1172 (Link to this contribution) Order. I was merely unclear as to which sport the hon. Gentleman was referring to.

Andrew Gwynne | 460 c1173 (Link to this contribution) It is entirely for the London boroughs to decide on this matter. However, before 1986 the metropolit...

Robert Neill | 460 c1173 (Link to this contribution) Except for this difference: the metropolitan counties were abolished and have not been reinstated, s...

Robert Neill | 460 c1172 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to speak on this group of amendments, but the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Turner) ...

Neil Turner | 460 c1171-2 (Link to this contribution) I, too, congratulate the Minister on introducing this excellent group of amendments in response to t...

Tom Levitt | 460 c1169;460 c1168-9 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my hon. Friend on responding to the mood of the Committee, especially the mood on the...

Lord Stunell | 460 c1170-1 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for responding to the debate in Committee which, as he said, was all-party and ...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1168 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his lengthy intervention because inspiration arrived during ...

Robert Syms | 460 c1168 (Link to this contribution) There is substantial consensus on the matter. As the Minister rightly said, trying to make a judgmen...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1167 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I agree with that. The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, and that is partly why I chose ...

Robert Neill | 460 c1167-8 (Link to this contribution) I very much agree with the Minister’s last observations and I suspect that there is consensus on the...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1200-1 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend once again takes the opportunity to promote the case for Stoke-on-Trent, and I commen...

Lord Stunell | 460 c1201 (Link to this contribution) What makes the Minister think that the models that he has chosen this time will have a higher ratio ...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1201 (Link to this contribution) First, in Stoke, Doncaster and elsewhere it is important that we separate the office holder from the...

Tom Levitt | 460 c1202 (Link to this contribution) I agree with every word of the last couple of paragraphs uttered by my hon. Friend the Minister, and...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1200 (Link to this contribution) I will of course give way to my hon. Friend, as she represents Stoke, which has a unique system.

Joan Walley | 460 c1200 (Link to this contribution) I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend’s remarks, but Stoke-on-Trent is in a category all of its...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1202 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Ironically—although perhaps it is not so surprising—we are havin...

Lord Stunell | 460 c1202 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way?

Phil Woolas | 460 c1202 (Link to this contribution) They will be clamouring for it in the future, of course, but the serious point is that the idea for ...

Alistair Burt | 460 c1197-8 (Link to this contribution) It is a fortunate council, but the vast majority of councils have had to move from that system. We w...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1199-200 (Link to this contribution) This debate has, not surprisingly, repeated some of the points that were made in Committee. I shall ...

Speaker | 460 c1199 (Link to this contribution) Order. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman was in his place for the beginning of this debate, so ...

Speaker | 460 c1200 (Link to this contribution) Order. I was merely wondering where this was going, and I suspect that it is further and further awa...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1200 (Link to this contribution) I am desperately trying to sustain the argument, with little success, that the structure of local go...

Michael Fabricant | 460 c1200 (Link to this contribution) Tony Blair.

Phil Woolas | 460 c1200 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman mentions my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and I would agree with him. We ...

Joan Walley | 460 c1200 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend give way?

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 460 c1191-2 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman suggests a meeting. It is important for the issues to be clarif...

David Heath | 460 c1191 (Link to this contribution) I think Peter Lacey would probably own up to being a little older than 25, but I am grateful for the...

Speaker | 460 c1195 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: No. 133, in clause 40, page 23, line 32, ...

Alistair Burt | 460 c1195 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Alistair Burt | 460 c1196 (Link to this contribution) I shall do my best to be brief. New clause 34 stands in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Membe...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1196 (Link to this contribution) I and my ministerial colleagues always acknowledge the three factors that have led to improvement: t...

Alistair Burt | 460 c1196-7 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that the Minister took the chance to respond to that. I am sure that he would agree tha...

David Heath | 460 c1197 (Link to this contribution) I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman and I agree that it is not for the Secretary of State...

Alistair Burt | 460 c1197 (Link to this contribution) No, what I am doing is using this new clause as a symbolic way of opening up the possibility of a va...

Dan Rogerson | 460 c1197 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will be aware that some authorities, such as North Cornwall district council in m...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 460 c1183 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Phil Woolas | 460 c1176 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right and I was wrong. I intended to refer to the pre-consultation. He thanked...

Lord Stunell | 460 c1176 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the spirit in which the Minister approaches the matter. He appeared to be surprised by ...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 460 c1190-1 (Link to this contribution) I thank Members for their contributions. The tone of our discussion has reflected our discussions in...

David Heath | 460 c1187-9 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak to my new clause 63, which deals with the power to issue guarantees in respect of pa...

Robert Neill | 460 c1189-90 (Link to this contribution) We discussed the question of parish councils in London in some detail in Committee. Without repeatin...

Robert Syms | 460 c1185-6 (Link to this contribution) First, I broadly welcome the thrust of the Government’s actions, which are to devolve power to paris...

David Drew | 460 c1186-7 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest immediately as a town councillor of some 20 years’ standing, although I do not...

Speaker | 460 c1183-4 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 57—Council’s power ...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1174 (Link to this contribution) That is correct; I thank my hon. Friend for giving me the opportunity to clarify the position. I am ...

Tom Levitt | 460 c1174 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend saying that under the amendments, a council that has always had all-out elections ...

Tom Levitt | 460 c1175 (Link to this contribution) I am about to sound a little ridiculous. Does my hon. Friend genuinely suggest that we have tabled 4...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1176 (Link to this contribution) No. I shall not repeat myself, but a reading of Hansard will show that that is not the case. We are ...

Peter Soulsby | 460 c1176 (Link to this contribution) Let us be clear. Is the Minister saying that unitary authorities that were formerly metropolitan dis...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1176 (Link to this contribution) Yes. That is precisely my point. An inevitable consequence of devolution is different patterns in d...

Tom Levitt | 460 c1174 (Link to this contribution) So why does my hon. Friend make that distinction between the two categories of council?

Phil Woolas | 460 c1175 (Link to this contribution) Because I have not been asked to until now. I am reflecting the debate in Committee. My hon. Friend ...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1175 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is going to push me on that point.

Philip Davies | 460 c1215 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that the Minister has acknowledged some of the problems and respects our genuine diff...

Lord Stunell | 460 c1213 (Link to this contribution) I want to draw the House’s attention to amendment No. 134, in my name and that of my hon. Friends, w...

Andrew Dismore | 460 c1212-3 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right, and that is why I have some sympathy with the hon. Member for Shipley (Phil...

Robert Syms | 460 c1213 (Link to this contribution) Debates on first principles are usually the best, even when they are very brief. We know why the Sta...

Andrew Dismore | 460 c1211-2 (Link to this contribution) I have some sympathy with the position taken by the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), having ...

Andrew Gwynne | 460 c1212 (Link to this contribution) In Committee, I spoke at length on that very issue. Is it not the point that many of the complaints ...

Speaker | 460 c1208 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 250, in clause 141, page 97,...

Philip Davies | 460 c1209-11 (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 260 to 264, which I also tabled, are consequential to new clause 64, which would abo...

Philip Davies | 460 c1208 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Andrew Gwynne | 460 c1244 (Link to this contribution) As the Minister knows, I come from a local government background and am proud to have served 11 year...

Robert Key | 460 c1244-5 (Link to this contribution) Many of us did not serve on the Committee but nevertheless retain a strong interest in the Bill’s pa...

Tom Levitt | 460 c1245-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to be called to speak on Third Reading. I agree with many of the other speakers that w...

Robert Neill | 460 c1241 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that this is not an either/or situation? It would be perfectly possible to...

Peter Soulsby | 460 c1241-2 (Link to this contribution) Listening to the hon. Member for North-East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), it is hard to recall now h...

Lord Stunell | 460 c1242-4 (Link to this contribution) I start by offering my thanks to the ministerial team, who were as obliging as they could be within ...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1236-8 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. I start by reassuring the House that the s...

Alistair Burt | 460 c1238-41 (Link to this contribution) I should like to begin by thanking the Minister for the way in which he and his colleagues have take...

Khalid Mahmood | 460 c1204 (Link to this contribution) Under the Bill, the right to petition for a referendum will be taken away and councils will decide a...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1204 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend raises an important point. The Bill does not take away the right of the public to rai...

Alistair Burt | 460 c1204 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister and I have listened carefully to his arguments, but we intend to press...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1202 (Link to this contribution) I will because the hon. Gentleman has been consistent on this point.

Lord Stunell | 460 c1202-3 (Link to this contribution) I very much appreciate the Minister giving way. He said that directly elected executives had the sup...

Louise Ellman | 460 c1203 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend accept that although strengthening executive powers as he suggests has certain a...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1164-6 (Link to this contribution) Putting my CIPFA guidance to one side, we come to a highly political matter that was the subject of ...

Robert Neill | 460 c1172-3 (Link to this contribution) You must have been to Upton Park on one of our bad days, too, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and experienced si...

Tom Levitt | 460 c1202 (Link to this contribution) Not yet.

Phil Woolas | 460 c1204 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but I could take him to Torbay where the Conservative mayor is d...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 460 c1137-8 (Link to this contribution) We may have had our first champagne moment, given that we all agree—and my hon. Friend the Minister ...

Andrew Gwynne | 460 c1171 (Link to this contribution) Like my hon. Friends the Members for Wigan (Mr. Turner) and for High Peak (Tom Levitt), I was one of...

Philip Davies | 460 c1198-9 (Link to this contribution) I of course endorse everything that my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Bedfordshire (Alistair ...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 460 c1184-5 (Link to this contribution) The new clause and the associated amendments provide clarity about handling community governance pet...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1213-5 (Link to this contribution) In the brief time available to me, I shall attempt to respond to the points raised by hon. Members. ...

Alistair Burt | 460 c1241 (Link to this contribution) There we are: right at the death, my hon. Friend provides yet another useful contribution, as he has...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1203-4 (Link to this contribution) One important argument about the benefits of the old committee system is that it brought experience ...

Philip Davies | 460 c1204 (Link to this contribution) indicated dissent.

Phil Woolas | 460 c1203 (Link to this contribution) I did not say that local authorities supported that model, but that the idea had come from them. Tha...

Alistair Burt | 460 c1154-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation of the new clauses and amendments. I read them car...

Phil Woolas | 460 c1158-9 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I congratulate the hon. Member for North-East Bedfordshire (Alista...

Michael Fabricant | 460 c1157 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Alison Seabeck) raises an interesting point, so yes, I will...