Legal Services Bill [HL]

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Tuesday, 6 March 2007, in the House of Lords.

Legal Services Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage sixth day. Clauses 158 to 204 agreed to; clauses 161, 176, 177, 194 to 196 agreed to as amended. Schedules 16 to 24 agreed to. Bill printed as amended.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

690 c147-218

Session

2006-07

Legal Services Bill (HL). As amended in Committee. In 2 volumes.
Tuesday, 6 March 2007
Bills
House of Lords

Legal Services Bill (HL). In two volumes. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 9-EN also published.
Thursday, 23 November 2006
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Kingsland | 690 c181-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 149A: 149A:Schedule 16 , page 231, line 30, leave out paragraph 40 and insert—...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c183 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for raising these issues. We recognised that the po...

Show all contributions (142)

Lord Kingsland | 690 c181 (Link to this contribution) In those circumstances, the correct approach for me to adopt is to beg leave to withdraw the amendme...

Lord Evans of Temple Guiting | 690 c181 (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn for 20 minutes. I beg to move that the ...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c181 (Link to this contribution) Did the Law Society see the Bill before it was published? It seems extraordinary that Parliament has...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c180 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord for dealing so succinctly with this huge group of amendmen...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c183-4 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, who has again assured your Lordships that she will take th...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c184 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 149C: 149C: Schedule 16, page 232, line 6, at end insert— ““(2) After that sec...

Lord Borrie | 690 c191-2 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as a Master of the Bench of the Middle Temple; that is, I am a member of the g...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 690 c190-1 (Link to this contribution) I endorse and unreservedly support what the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, has said. I declare an inter...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c185-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 150: 150: Schedule 16, page 232, line 18, leave out paragraph 43 and insert— “...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c185 (Link to this contribution) I am once again most grateful to the noble Baroness for agreeing to take these matters away and cons...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c187 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. I am not sure. These amendments were inspired by the Solic...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c186-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord. The provisions we have set out in paragraph 43 of Schedule 16 are i...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c188 (Link to this contribution) Once again, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for explaining the detail behind the am...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c187-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 150ZA: 150ZA: Schedule 16, page 238, line 17, leave out paragraph (a) and inse...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c189-90 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 151: 151: After Clause 173, insert the following new Clause— ““Barristers Barr...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c189 (Link to this contribution) Once again, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. I have succeeded for the most part and hope th...

Lord Neill of Bladen | 690 c192 (Link to this contribution) I support what has just been said by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the nobl...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c195 (Link to this contribution) After the second intervention of the noble Baroness, I feel much more reassured. In those circumstan...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c193 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble Lord can organise it. I completely recognise the strength of feeling about the...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c193 (Link to this contribution) I think that the noble Baroness has just invited herself to four Inns of Court.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c193 (Link to this contribution) That was the most animated debate we have had today. I still struggle with what a bencher is, never ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c192-3 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that representation for Lincoln’s Inn is missing—because I declare an interest as a bench...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c195 (Link to this contribution) The point is well made, and well taken. That is why we need to take the issue away and get it right....

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 690 c194 (Link to this contribution) I wonder if I can point out to the Minister that I understand very well why ““barrister”” was not in...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c194 (Link to this contribution) I had hoped that the noble Lord would be more enthusiastic about my words. First, there are some iss...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c193-4 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her reply, but I am disappointed that she is not able t...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c195 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 151ZA: 151ZA:Schedule 17 , page 265, line 12, at end insert— ““In section 22 (...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c195-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord. I agree; we need to recognise that it is important to update and st...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c198 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister. I sense that she accepts the logic that lay behind my interventi...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c197-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising these points. I was expecting him to do so, which is why...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c199 (Link to this contribution) My name is attached to this amendment. Of course, we support the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, who has...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c198-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 151C: 151C:Clause 184 , page 99, line 4, leave out subsection (2) The noble L...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c196 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister. Of course I will allow her to go away and consider these matters...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c197 (Link to this contribution) The purpose of encouraging this clause-stand-part debate is to raise the issue of immigration advice...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c196-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 151B: 151B:Clause 177 , page 93, leave out lines 35 to 37 and insert— ““(7) An...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c199-200 (Link to this contribution) Again, I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising this issue. Clause 184 maintains the rights and ...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c200 (Link to this contribution) I am of course most grateful to the Minister for her explanation, but I do not understand why the lo...

Lord Lyell of Markyate | 690 c199 (Link to this contribution) As I was responsible on and off for 10 years for the Government Legal Service, I think that my noble...

Lord Lyell of Markyate | 690 c201 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness answers that, I hope that I may inject one more thought. Although it is tr...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c201 (Link to this contribution) It would cost £850,000. It struck me that the Government were running short of solicitors. How much ...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c201 (Link to this contribution) £850,000!

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c201 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness answers that, did I hear her say that the cost would be only £158,000?

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 690 c201 (Link to this contribution) Are barristers employed in public service by government treated differently from solicitors employed...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c200-1 (Link to this contribution) I am not asking the noble Baroness to exempt barristers; I am simply using the illustration of barri...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c200 (Link to this contribution) I am now confused about what the noble Lord wants me to do. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford,...

Lord Campbell of Alloway | 690 c156 (Link to this contribution) I do not disagree for that reason, but where is the problem to which the noble Baroness refers in th...

Lord Campbell of Alloway | 690 c153 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendments, for the reasons given by my noble friend Lord Kingsland and the noble Lord...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 690 c153-4 (Link to this contribution) It is worth recalling that, in so far as cash burdens are imposed on the legal profession, these wil...

Lord Campbell of Alloway | 690 c156 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has just dealt with the question of principle, but what is the justification for ...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c151-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 139H: 139H: After Clause 165, insert the following new Clause— ““Establishment...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c151 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 139G: 139G:Clause 161, page 84, line 7, after ““persons”” insert ““(other than...

Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 690 c153 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, in his Amendment No. 139H and those associated with it in ...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c150-1 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. She will be aware from the previous five sittings that one...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c150 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her response. I am also extremely grateful to the noble Lord...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c150 (Link to this contribution) I was saying under my breath that it is early in the day—hence the smiling. I was interested in what...

Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 690 c148 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendments proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. It is clear that, despite the b...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c148-9 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lords, Lord Kingsland and Lord Maclennan of Rogart, that it is essential that...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c148 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 139FA: 139FA: Before Clause 158, insert the following new Clause— ““Duty to co...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c164-5 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful. But the Minister must accept that, as matters stand, the legal profession has, a...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c165-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 148A: 148A:Clause 169 , page 88, line 20, at end insert— ““( ) The duty to com...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c166-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for explaining the purpose behind the amendment so succinctly. I und...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c167 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to hear that the Minister agrees with the objectives that the amendment sets out to m...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c162-3 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, about the importance of light-touch regu...

Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 690 c162 (Link to this contribution) We on these Benches take a broadly similar view to that enunciated by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c164 (Link to this contribution) As I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, I think that the best way of tackling the accounta...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c163 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister tell the Committee, from her examination of the comparisons, what differences betwe...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c164 (Link to this contribution) I was trying to demonstrate the different kinds of financial systems that have been set up and the r...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c164 (Link to this contribution) Once again, I am grateful for the Minister's reply. Towards the end of her observations, the Ministe...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c161 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is far too clever for me. He will not be surprised that I will want to go away and th...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c161 (Link to this contribution) I find the thought that the Minister is thinking exceedingly reassuring. In those circumstances, I b...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c160 (Link to this contribution) I am saying, and I will reiterate it, that I do not want these considerations in the Bill, for the r...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c160 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful for the Minister’s reply. To some degree, it may be that the problems anticipated...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c161-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 142B: 142B:Clause 166 , page 86, line 8, after ““means”” insert ““two-thirds o...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c156-7 (Link to this contribution) We have also debated at great length the whole question of delegation and I continue in my discussio...

Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 690 c160 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down, would she clarify her last point? Is she saying that, although she do...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c159-60 (Link to this contribution) I had guessed where this amendment might have come from. As the noble Lord has indicated, it is very...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c158-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 142A: 142A:Clause 166 , page 85, line 40, at end insert— ““( ) In apportioning...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c157-8 (Link to this contribution) As ever I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her reply. I want to make just a few observatio...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c176-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 149ZE: 149ZE:Schedule 16 , page 222, line 41, at end insert— ““( ) in subsecti...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c176 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to say, perhaps for the first time today, that, in view of the noble Baroness’s respo...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c174 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. Insurance will inevitably be an issue in this context but ...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c174-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 149ZB: 149ZB:Schedule 16 , page 221, line 2, leave out from ““certificate”” to...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c176 (Link to this contribution) We must be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for his exposition, which has made clear many...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c176 (Link to this contribution) I, too, am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for going through the amendments in detail. I...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c173 (Link to this contribution) Evidence is quite central. I was trying to make the distinction about the desire to regulate reserve...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c173 (Link to this contribution) That was a very helpful invitation from the noble Baroness. It has somewhat stopped me in my tracks ...

Baroness Hamwee | 690 c174 (Link to this contribution) I feel somewhat embarrassed at intervening, having had nothing to do with this Bill so far. As a sol...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c174 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I do not know if that is the main issue, but when we have discu...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c173 (Link to this contribution) I am of course most grateful. I was interested to hear the noble Baroness use ““no evidence”” as one...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c172-3 (Link to this contribution) This amendment is the first of a number of amendments proposed to Schedule 16, on an issue on which ...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c171-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 149ZA: 149ZA:Schedule 16 , page 218, line 37, leave out paragraph 2 and insert...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c171 (Link to this contribution) I was not going to reflect on that—that discussion has taken place and the Master of the Rolls is co...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c171 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has a point, which is enough for me at this stage. I beg leave to withdraw the am...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c170-1 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the noble Lord is saying and I need to take more advice on that. I recognise that he is ...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c171 (Link to this contribution) I would have thought that, from the point of view of independence, you could not have a better guara...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c168-70 (Link to this contribution) I am again grateful to the noble Lord for explaining what he is seeking to do. I shall try to explai...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c170 (Link to this contribution) Once again I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. I quite understand that if the concerns that sh...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c167-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 149: 149:After Clause 170 , insert the following new Clause— ““Solicitors’ Dis...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c179-80 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 149ZN: 149ZN: Schedule 16, page 230, line 45, at end insert— ““(ba) if the bod...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c178 (Link to this contribution) The Minister should accept that, since 1990, when the six-month rule was established, the nature of ...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 690 c177-8 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to hear my noble friend agree to reconsider this issue. I strongly believe that six m...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c178 (Link to this contribution) Precisely; we will discuss this with the Law Society. I do not promise to make the changes but I pro...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c178-9 (Link to this contribution) Again, I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising this issue. I know that the Law Society has raise...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c179 (Link to this contribution) I could not possibly argue with that very generous offer. In those circumstances, I beg leave to wit...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c178 (Link to this contribution) I would certainly be prepared to accept an amendment such as that. It has immediate attractions beca...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c178 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 149ZM: 149ZM: Schedule 16, page 228, line 12, at end insert— ““( ) after ““rel...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c177 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for discussing the amendments in detail. My concern is about extendi...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c214-5 (Link to this contribution) We fully support this amendment. We do not see why an interim chief executive should be appointed wh...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c214 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 157A: 157A: Schedule 22, page 300, line 29, leave out paragraph 4 The noble L...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c216-8 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for her response. I am also grateful for the support I have recei...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c215-6 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may explain how the interim chief executive will operate. Someone has to make decisions an...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c215 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has just referred to IT, which is another example of the enormous investment that...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c215 (Link to this contribution) I know from discussions that I have had outside the Chamber with the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gres...

Lord Neill of Bladen | 690 c214 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 201 a...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c211-2 (Link to this contribution) The same applies to this part of the House. The noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, can rely on our su...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c212-3 (Link to this contribution) I understand entirely what the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, seeks to do, and I pay tribute to t...

Lord Neill of Bladen | 690 c213 (Link to this contribution) I thank those who have lent support to what I have said, from which I received encouragement. I am g...

Lord Lyell of Markyate | 690 c213 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the House because I could not hear the amendment in the normal manner, although I did...

Lord Neill of Bladen | 690 c207-11 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 157ZA: 157ZA:Clause 201 , page 110, line 27, at end insert ““provided always t...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c207 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 155A: 155A: Clause 196, page 108, line 17, at end insert— ““( ) A statutory in...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 690 c211 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen. I shall deal with points that the Committee...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c207 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 153: 153: Clause 196, page 108, line 7, at end insert— ““( ) section 107 (fore...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c206 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 151E: 151E: Clause 195, page 106, line 39, at end insert— ““( ) Subsection (6)...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c206-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 152: 152: Clause 196, page 108, line 5, at end insert— ““( ) section 79(1) (fu...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c206 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord for that explanation. Quite often pro bono work wil...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c206 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 151D: 151D: Clause 194, page 106, line 9, at end insert— ““( ) Any rules made ...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c205 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his very full explanation. He mentioned that th...

Lord Goldsmith | 690 c205-6 (Link to this contribution) I am not absolutely sure what consultation at this stage there will have been with anyone else. The ...

Lord Goldsmith | 690 c203-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for his kind words of welcome. In responding to the amendment, I should decla...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c202-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 151CA: 151CA:Clause 185 , page 99, line 32, leave out ““the prescribed charity...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c201-2 (Link to this contribution) I agree completely with what the noble and learned Lord said about the high standards that they woul...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c185 (Link to this contribution) I am again grateful to the noble Lord, and I will be brief. We want to consider the amendments. I un...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c196 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 151A: 151A:Clause 176 , page 91, leave out lines 18 to 20 and insert— ““(7) An...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 690 c178 (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Lord be prepared to accept an amendment that said that the normal rule should be six...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c154-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords for this very important debate on the levy. However, the Government beg...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c211 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, will not be surprised if I tell him that he has the full suppo...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c147 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on behalf of my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton, I beg to move that the...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c181 (Link to this contribution) The Government have been talking to the Law Society throughout as we have put the Bill together. Wha...

Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 690 c156 (Link to this contribution) I shall certainly seek to do that for the noble Lord. We have set up a system in response to a conce...

Lord Kingsland | 690 c202 (Link to this contribution) It is clear that the noble Baroness is well dug-in on this issue, in contrast to her reaction to mos...