UK Parliament / Open data

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Thursday, 1 March 2007, in the House of Lords.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

689 c239-312GC 

Session

2006-07

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Related items

Welfare Reform Bill. As amended in Grand Committee.
Thursday, 1 March 2007
Bills
House of Lords
Welfare Reform Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 24-EN also published.
Wednesday, 10 January 2007
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c291-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am reassured by that statement. Nevertheless, what would be even more reassuring is the knowledge ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c292GC (Link to this contribution) To deal more specifically with that point, perhaps I should re-read the White Paper to which the nob...

Show all contributions (143)
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c295-6GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for bringing about this debate. I am trying to think of something amusing to ...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c281GC (Link to this contribution) We were just probing. The Minister rightly makes the point that there are difficult balances between...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c276GC (Link to this contribution) I should like to study the detail, but I shall reflect on the point made by the noble Lord so that I...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c276GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is right. In 1997, something like 33,000 people were accessing single room rent and t...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c268GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may speak very briefly to Amendment No. 93. I am extremely tempted to say ““no””, for the ...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c266-7GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for raising an important issue with her amendment. Income-related benefit...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c246-7GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may respond to the points raised in what has been a helpful and valuable small debate on t...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c249-50GC (Link to this contribution) We support Amendment No. 76. I shall speak to Amendments Nos. 77 to 81 tabled in my name and that of...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c291GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that response. I was particularly keen on the emphasis that he laid on reha...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c292GC (Link to this contribution) Much of what the Minister said could have been quoted almost directly from the housing White Paper o...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c293GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 107A: 107A: Clause 35 , page 30, line 2, at end insert— ““(3A) In respect of de...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c294GC (Link to this contribution) We support the amendment. It seems to be a no-brainer. Why on earth would rent officers not want to ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c294-5GC (Link to this contribution) I think that the Minister has the Benefits and Contributions Information Guide 2006 in front of her....
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c296GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to withdraw my amendment, because I was much reassured by the noble Baroness’s comments a...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c297GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that I made it clear enough. The duty for rent officers to consult local authorities i...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c298-9GC (Link to this contribution) I have great sympathy with the concerns raised by the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Addington. I...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c297GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 35 agreed to. Claus...
Lord Addington | 689 c297GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 108: 108: Clause 36 , page 30, line 21, at end insert— ““(2C) Regulations made...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c304GC (Link to this contribution) The regulations referred to with regard to Clause 40 are in the Red Book on page 138. I apologise if...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c304GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 108B: 108B: Clause 40 , page 33, line 17, at end insert ““if it is done for th...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c309GC (Link to this contribution) For the avoidance of doubt, does ““healthcare professionals”” mean anyone other than doctors, medica...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c309GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, is right to ask that question. We have been using the words ““healt...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c281GC (Link to this contribution) Because no reference was made to it, I thought that the noble Lord was not going to highlight it but...
Earl of Listowel | 689 c277-8GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his considered replies to the concerns raised. It was good to be reminded h...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c279GC (Link to this contribution) I may have chided the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, slightly on the previous amendment but on this one I ...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c278GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 103B: 103B: Clause 29 , page 20, line 16, at end insert— ““( ) Regulations spec...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c283GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 104 not move...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c283GC (Link to this contribution) The Bill gives us an opportunity to address the issue. The amendment would give people who are not p...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c283GC (Link to this contribution) Having already addressed the amendment and got my retaliation in first, I will not bore the Committe...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c281GC (Link to this contribution) In my list, Amendment No. 103C is listed separately, but that list is one that we provided for ourse...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c310GC (Link to this contribution) I understand that point. I thought that we had already committed to write to noble Lords to make it ...
Lord Haskel | 689 c239GC (Link to this contribution) If there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn as soon as th...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c276GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is absolutely right to say that it is capped within each authority, but in aggregate ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c268GC (Link to this contribution) I note what the noble Lord has said and look forward to our possible debate in due course. On Quest...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c269GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 96 to 102: 96: Schedule 3, page 63, line 9, leave out ““(7)”” and insert ““(...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c263GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minster leaves that point, as I expect she is about to, does she have any figures on how ...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c262GC (Link to this contribution) The clause is obviously apposite to the purposes of the Bill, Pathways and everything that we have b...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c261GC (Link to this contribution) This has been a useful debate, not least because we have had the very kind offer to see the computer...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c261GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may clarify that point. I accept that it is important to evaluate the whole of the ESA jou...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c251-3GC (Link to this contribution) There has been a great deal of interest from noble Lords and those in another place on the possibili...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c253GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, I believe that would be the practical effect. I will try to deal with some of the other questi...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c254GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that I have shown during the course of the Committee that I am a fairly tolerant individual, ...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c253GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his detailed replies to our amendments—they were helpful—and I hope that, i...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c255GC (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that the Minister has been trying hard to satisfy us, but I remain unsatisfied. Clearly...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c255GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 81A: 81A: Clause 16, page 14, line 24, leave out paragraph (a) The noble Lord...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c256GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 16 provides that the income and capital of a person claiming employment and support allowance...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c240GC (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to hear that the provision is basically designed to stop the ““thwarting””—I think th...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c244GC (Link to this contribution) I shall try again. Bids for Pathways to Work contracts for potential providers should include detail...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c244-6GC (Link to this contribution) I beg forgiveness from the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for missing the earlier e...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c244GC (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Lord kindly repeat that? I missed about three words in what he has just said.
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c248GC (Link to this contribution) That is extremely helpful. This has been a useful discussion on a rather complicated area. I am grat...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c291GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble Lord will also accept that I said that if rehabilitation services were not ava...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c292GC (Link to this contribution) Focusing on rehabilitation is rather to miss the point. If these resources are available, they shoul...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c297GC (Link to this contribution) The direction of travel which the Minister has outlined is good. I still do not see why the amendmen...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c297GC (Link to this contribution) May I assume that this is on the basis of continual consultation?
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c301GC (Link to this contribution) The point I tried to make was that if a tenant falls into arrears of eight weeks or more, payments s...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c303-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for introducing the amendments, which take account of part of wh...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c304GC (Link to this contribution) From these Benches, we welcome the government amendment in response to the Delegated Powers and Regu...
Lord Addington | 689 c302GC (Link to this contribution) That is about as good an answer as you can get at this point, although you are always a little worri...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c302GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 108A: 108A: Clause 40 , page 33, line 16, leave out ““any prescribed purpose w...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c305GC (Link to this contribution) I have taken this opportunity to probe exactly how widely the Government intend this clause to exten...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c304GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 109 to 110: 109: Schedule 6, page 81, line 2, after ““Regulations”” insert “...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c307GC (Link to this contribution) It really is extremely annoying that for the last few amendments of the Bill we are under such press...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c279-81GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 103B and 103C seek to amend Clause 29. Amendment No. 104A is a new clause concerning...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c276-7GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his replies. I also welcome the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, to a speaking part...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c287-91GC (Link to this contribution) These amendments seek to ensure that disabilities and health issues are taken into account before a ...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c285-7GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 105, 106 and 107 stand in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Thomas. The claus...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c283GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 104B: 104B: Clause 30, page 21, line 34, after ““reduced”” insert ““by up to 50...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c283GC (Link to this contribution) I acknowledge that there is always more to do to ensure that people are fully supported, but it woul...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c311GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentsNos. 114 to 115: 114: Clause 68, page 49, line 4, leave out second ““and”” 115: ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c310GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 112: 112: Schedule 7 , page 82, line 27, at end insert— ““( ) In section 123 (u...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c310GC (Link to this contribution) I am delighted. In that spirit, we follow the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale. Both Min...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c310GC (Link to this contribution) I am well aware that the noble Lord and others are pressing for as much clarity as possible. I am ad...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c309-10GC (Link to this contribution) Can I be quite clear on that? We raised this question yesterday, and I would have expected a little ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c273-6GC (Link to this contribution) I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, to what I think is his first duty on the Front Bench on this ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c269GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 95: 95: Clause 25 , page 19, line 11, at end insert— ““( ) regulations under se...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c273GC (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to be able to join the deliberations on the Bill. If this change of voice also change...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c272-3GC (Link to this contribution) In speaking to the amendment, I shall speak also to AmendmentNo. 104, standing in my name and that o...
Earl of Listowel | 689 c269GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 103A: 103A: Clause 29 , page 20, line 16, at end insert— ““( ) The appropriate ...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c263-4GC (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting point, and I shall write to the noble Lord about it. We are extremely indebte...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c261-2GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise for being a little slow this afternoon, but with the permission of the Committee I shall...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c260GC (Link to this contribution) I am sure that there will be a strong take-up for that. I do not want to labour this point, but the...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c267-8GC (Link to this contribution) The Department of Health is carrying out a review of prescriptions, but the Department for Work and ...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c267GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister very much for that very encouraging reply. She said again that she ““expected””...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c268GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 93: 93: Clause 25 , page 19, line 10, at end insert— ““( ) regulations under se...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c265-6GC (Link to this contribution) This amendment refers back to points I made on the first day—as the noble Baroness has said—indeed, ...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c267GC (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that point. I was trying to make a distinction; namely, that to obtain free prescriptio...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c267GC (Link to this contribution) I said that the amendment related to those who received either strand of ESA as their only household...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c264GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 88: 88: After Clause 21 , insert the following new Clause— ““Prescription char...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c253GC (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister saying that everything that the amendment asks for will be done anyway? On that basi...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c254GC (Link to this contribution) It is an unfair representation of the Government’s position to say that we want to do it when we lik...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c255GC (Link to this contribution) I know that the Minister tried to provide comfort with that small speech, but I am afraid that the s...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c256-7GC (Link to this contribution) I was suggesting that this should be included as a more general power, and therefore it could be tak...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c258-60GC (Link to this contribution) Independent research has already demonstrated the success of Pathways. We touched on the question of...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c239GC (Link to this contribution) This is a new month but a continuing Committee stage. What I am about to produce is, I think, a new ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c246GC (Link to this contribution) It may be easier if I add to those two contributions. The relationship between the customer and the ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c242-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the broad acknowledgement that using providers as envisaged has support in princip...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c240GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 75: 75: Clause 15, page 12, line 30, leave out subsection (1) The noble Lord ...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c247GC (Link to this contribution) This is an idiot question, because I am a newcomer to all this, but is there any relation between jo...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c247GC (Link to this contribution) There is no requirement in any of what we are doing, even when we roll out the work-related activity...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c248GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 76: 76: Clause 15 , page 12, line 39, after ““function”” insert ““, excluding ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c248GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, I hope I can. It is probably right to say that it would not be right to specify subcontractors ...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c293GC (Link to this contribution) Given the Minister’s comments, for the moment I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by ...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c299-301GC (Link to this contribution) I shall try to respond quickly to these points. One of the central objectives of housing benefit ref...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c301GC (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Baroness clarify the position regarding the period of time that must elapse before int...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c301-2GC (Link to this contribution) I accept that offer and I am grateful to the noble Baroness for it. It is another example of somethi...
Lord Addington | 689 c302GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister gave us a helpful answer. Am I right to assume that the type of support that is called ...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c302GC (Link to this contribution) I could nod, but I should make it clear that we are building on the experience of the Pathways areas...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c305-7GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for giving me the opportunity to explain the pur...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c308GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful. On Question, Clause 59 agreed to. Clause 60 agreed to.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c308GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 111: 111: After Clause 60, insert the following new Clause— ““ Medical examinat...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c307GC (Link to this contribution) After the noble Lord has had a chance to read Hansard, I will be happy to clarify any further points...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c276GC (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the Minister can help me just a fraction. I note from a Written Answer in another p...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c287GC (Link to this contribution) This has a history, does it not? It started in the housing Green Paper published in 2000, which ackn...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 689 c281GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 103C: 103C: Clause 29 , page 20, line 16, at end insert— ““(2A) Regulations spe...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c311GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 113: 113: Clause 67, page 48, line 24, after ““(6)”” insert ““, (6A)”” On Ques...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c310GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but that is exactly the point: not ““and other unspecified””, but that it must be an exh...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c309GC (Link to this contribution) The expressions I used were not intended to be exhaustive. The definition of ““healthcare profession...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c276GC (Link to this contribution) That is exactly the point I sought to make. Perhaps the Minister would care to withdraw his response...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c276GC (Link to this contribution) Unless I have misunderstood the noble Lord, is it not cash-limited within each local authority? When...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c262-3GC (Link to this contribution) I admit to being slightly unsure of where we are procedurally. I think that I am speaking in favour ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c261GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister has produced the thought that I was trying to articulate in very much clearer language....
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c260-1GC (Link to this contribution) I, for one, put up an invisible hand to accept the invitation—as did the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood—t...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c268GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister emphasise to the Department of Health that there are 750,000 people who, Citizens ...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c254GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the Minister—I was quoting directly from the Commons when I said that no decisions ha...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c255GC (Link to this contribution) If we are seriously now saying that a vulnerable, perhaps mentally ill, claimant who has had his ben...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c255GC (Link to this contribution) That is really an unfair representation of what has been said. If we are to deal with this properly,...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c254-5GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord referred to the criticism by the JCHR. I emphasise that the effect of Clause 15(7) is...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c256GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister, but the Bill has a wide title. Later this afternoon, the noble Lord, ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c256GC (Link to this contribution) To deal with this a little more fully, the provisions are here because we must deal with regulations...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c257GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 85: 85: Clause 18, page 15, line 34, leave out subsection (7) and insert— ““( ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c258GC (Link to this contribution) Our amendment in this group is designed to prevent current and future pilot schemes coming under the...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c239-40GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to confirm that this is a sensible provision. Clause 14 will permit the Secretary of Sta...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c246GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may follow up that point, and I hope that the Minister will forgive me if this issue has a...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c242GC (Link to this contribution) We return to the fray this afternoon with a somewhat depleted team on this side of the Committee. Th...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c250-1GC (Link to this contribution) I want to make a couple of points in relation to Amendment No. 79, which focuses on the need to elim...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c247GC (Link to this contribution) I have another daft laddie question to complete this important debate, as the Minister described it....
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c247GC (Link to this contribution) Again, the noble Lord makes an interesting point. It is too early; we really need to see what result...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c247-8GC (Link to this contribution) That brings me neatly to my question about contracts. Presumably, they will be block contracts. I am...

Subjects

Disability
Disclosure of information
Care homes
Benefits rules
Age
Anti-social behaviour
Advisory services
Housing benefit
Fraud
Employment
Income support
Fees and charges
Exemptions
Health professions
Interviews
Industrial diseases
Evictions
Medical examinations
Pilot schemes
Personal income
Prescriptions
Social security benefits
Training
Rented housing
Rents
Unemployed people
Pathways to work
Employment and support allowance

Legislation

Welfare Reform Bill 2005-06 to 2006-07

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
Back to top