Protection of Freedoms Bill

My Lords, perhaps the House will welcome my intervention at this stage. I echo the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, in saying that, surprisingly, I, too, commend the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, on tabling the amendments in this group. However, I have some doubts about their practicality and timing. My first doubt is about their practicality. There are three amendments in the group. I am not sure in which order the noble Baroness would wish to see them on the statute book, or whether she wants to see them all on the statute book at the same time. Amendment 49A sets out in some detail what she proposes to do, although subsection (8) of the proposed new clause still gives the Secretary of State power by regulation to add further forms of conduct to subsection (6). The second amendment is a somewhat briefer attempt to do the same thing, which gives greater power to the Secretary of State to govern by regulation. The third, Amendment 49C, seems to imply that the Secretary of State can do what she likes, when she likes, merely by regulation. I am not sure that that is the right way to go about legislating in this field. I hope that I will cover these points in greater detail in my brief remarks. I appreciate also the extreme importance of this matter. I make it quite clear to the noble Baroness and to the House that the Government take this very seriously indeed. We understand what my noble friend Lady Brinton called the fear and trauma that it can cause victims, many of whom are women living in fear of physical violence as well as mental anguish. We accept that more needs to be done—I make that quite clear—to protect victims of stalking and to stamp out such behaviour. That is why the Government took the initiative as long ago as last November in launching their consultation, which sought views on how we could more effectively protect victims of stalking—including, if necessary, through strengthening civil and criminal law, and police powers. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister, as my noble friend Lady Brinton said, has already acknowledged that there is a gap in the law. The question is how we close it. The issue not just for the noble Baroness but for the whole House is whether voting on these amendments today will help afford further protection to the victims of stalking or whether, as I respectfully submit, it would be preferable to give a little more time for consideration of the views of victims, practitioners and the police before a decision is taken. Reference was made to the consultation that I have just spoken about. As the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, reminded the House, it closed only yesterday. It will take a bit of time to study the results. There were nearly 150 responses from a diverse range of individuals and groups. Rather surprisingly for a consultation that has allegedly closed, there are one or two more views that will come in, but they are almost there. The groups include victims of stalking, women's groups, the police and others. We owe it to all of them to look very carefully at, and consider very properly, their views and the evidence before we decide on the best way forward. Again, I assure the House that we are committed to doing this as expeditiously as possible—but obviously it will take a little time to consider 150 responses. We will also look at the views of the all-party Justice Unions Parliamentary Group, which will publish its report tomorrow. The noble Baroness confessed that she had not seen it, and nor have I. However, other noble Baronesses such as the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, and my noble friend Lady Brinton have been actively involved in it. We owe it to them and to the group to consider the report very carefully. Those who have been part of the group have the advantage of knowing what is in the report. Unless I am mistaken, the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, does not—and nor do I. We are very keen to consider the group's conclusions and recommendations alongside the other responses to our consultation. I hope that the noble Baroness will not feel that I am seeking more time purely to delay or prevaricate. The issue is far too serious for that. However, as I said, with the best will in the world we cannot be expected to consider 150 responses in 24 hours, and we cannot yet consider the other report, which we are looking forward to seeing tomorrow—as is my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. Reference was made by other noble Lords, in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, to Third Reading. That will not happen until well after the half-term Recess. We could push that back well into March. Therefore, there is a reasonable amount of time, and to some extent the timetable is in our hands, subject to normal discussions with the usual channels. That will give us sufficient time to consider the responses to the consultation and the report from the all-party group, and to reach a view within government on the best way forward in advance of Third Reading. The noble Baroness will appreciate that I cannot give her a cast-iron guarantee that we will bring forward the amendment that she wants at Third Reading. If she presses her amendment tonight, we will have the problem of having muddied the waters and made a decision in the House. We will then have constraints on what we can do at Third Reading. The noble Baroness is as familiar as I am with the guidance in the Companion to the Standing Orders on what we can and cannot do at Third Reading on an amendment on which we have come to a conclusion. I would be very grateful if, on this occasion, the noble Baroness would listen to me rather than taking advice from her noble friend the opposition Chief Whip, although she can take advice from him in due course. I cannot guarantee an amendment at Third Reading, but I can promise to give the noble Baroness an assurance in advance of Third Reading as to whether or not we will be bringing forward an amendment at that stage. If we do not bring forward an amendment at that stage it will then be open to the noble Baroness, along with the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, and other noble Lords, to bring forward any such amendment as may be wished. The noble Baroness would be at liberty to bring those amendments back and press them to a Division at that point. The choice is one for the noble Baroness but if she presses this to a Division, and if the House comes to a conclusion, she will have actually made it harder for both the Government and herself to achieve what she wants to do at Third Reading which is in something like six weeks’ time. It might be five weeks or four but, as we all know, it will be well into March. I therefore urge the noble Baroness to listen to the remarks of some others in this debate and, on this occasion, to withdraw her amendment, bide her time for a few weeks longer and then let us see what might be possible at Third Reading.