Localism Bill

My Lords, as I said at the beginning, I should make it absolutely clear that I support what the Government are trying to do. The noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree, suggested that this was wonderland—and to some extent it is—but the debate has shown that there are a number of very important issues involved. When I table fiddly, legalistic House of Lords-type amendments such as this, I always do so with a certain amount of fear that when I move them I shall be denounced around the Committee for wasting everybody’s time, but we have spent almost an hour debating this amendment. The debate has varied from a discussion of what the two particular words mean right through to the general principles. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, made a useful speech which took us through the general principles, the issues and the problems. The debate has shown that this provision perhaps needs a little more careful attention before we leave it in the Bill. A noble Lord referred to the question of predetermination. One of the problems for local government is that this issue does not derive from any statute that I know about but from common law. It has developed over the past 15 years as a result of complaints and rulings from the Local Government Ombudsman, the Standards Board for England and some court cases. We are talking about planning here more than anything else. When you are dealing with applicants who put in for planning permission—certain large supermarkets and so on—one of the problems is that it is very easy indeed for a council to end up in court. This can cost a great deal of money and councillors being hung out to dry. It is difficult and I hope that what the Government are trying to do will clarify the situation. I do not want to see reams of regulations and statutory guidance on this but clear advice will have to be given to local councillors, particularly those on planning committees. That would be extremely useful. On councils such as mine, where the area committees are the planning committee for their area, every member of the council is a member of the planning committee. It affects everyone and they cannot hide behind what councils with very small planning committees do. They cannot say that certain councillors are insulated from the campaigning but everyone else can campaign; on my council, every councillor is a planning councillor on a planning committee and takes development control decisions every month. There are ways of getting round it. I always say to developers, ““Yes, I will meet you. I am not going to be hidebound and say that we do not generally agree to this. I am going to be careful what I say to you and you must be very clear that I shall look at all the issues. I represent people who are against what you are doing—indeed, I may represent you—but I shall listen to you. When the application comes to the committee I shall make a rational decision, but I cannot tell you now what that decision is going to be””. It is more difficult when you are talking to angry constituents but there are ways and means of saying things. I could say, ““Look, I cannot promise—I am not allowed to—that I will support you at the committee. I suggest that you come along to the committee, see what I do and then make your own mind up””. Even then sometimes I do not vote the way they want me to—but there we go. That is life. It has all happened in the last 15 years with regard to planning, but I do not believe that the planning system was hopeless before that all started, and this may get us back towards that. I ask the Government to issue clear advice and guidance to local councillors. It would be extremely helpful if somebody could produce a draft of that advice to councillors, based on what is in this legislation, before we get to Report. If the Government are able to do that, it will clarify a very great deal of the effect that the Government think it will have—not in all these legalistic worlds, but what ordinary councillors on the ground are going to be told they can and cannot do. I offer that advice to the Government. Meanwhile, I said these were typical House of Lords amendments, and I thank my noble friend Lord Taylor for giving a typical House of Lords response to them, some of which I am satisfied with and some of which I did not quite understand on the spur of it. I will spend a typical House of Lords weekend reading Hansard to try to understand it. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 88 withdrawn. Amendments 89 to 92 not moved. Amendment 93 Moved by