European Union Bill

My Lords, we have had a rather amazing debate in which I found all kinds of echoes of agreement that did not seem to be there in the darker days of May when your Lordships first went into Committee to examine the details of the Bill. We have come a long way since then and there seems to be a greater appreciation—not necessarily combined with agreement—about some of the issues that the Bill seeks to address. We have of course been down memory lane with the various comments by noble Lords who have been extremely experienced in European affairs over almost half a century. Edmund Burke featured again, although I must say that the more I think about that great man, the more I hear in my mind his remark, ““Show me the man; show me the things””. In other words, he was interested in the situation as it actually was, rather than in the high theory of how it ought to be. I did not agree with the final remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle. He should not be depressed because the possibilities for our leading in European reform are much greater than he accepts, although he is an expert in these matters. He is entirely right to say that the landscape has changed and that we are dealing with an entirely new situation. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, who put his finger on the matter when he said that this is all incredibly complex. It is complex. I was venturing the view only this morning that having taken through the other place and this House somewhere in the region of 35 Bills, I have to say that this is one of the most complex measures I have had the privilege of laying before a House of Parliament. The complexity is there because the EU legislative landscape is complex. Some of its 1,001 aspects are understood and some are not. Many, because of their unintelligibility and obscurity, create the atmosphere of mistrust and reinforce the devastating figures, just given to us by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, about the decline of trust in the political process generally and the administration of power in places where power is held, including the European Commission and European institutions. As we tried to wade through the complexities, we had a splendid reminder from my noble friend Lord Dobbs of the overarching purpose of this Bill and of how some of us are trying to persuade your Lordships of the validity of what is proposed in detail in the Bill, which is, in a sense, to rescue the European Union from a trend of declining confidence and a growing dismay that the European Union is about to lose its way and to underline the important part the European Union is playing and can play, contrary to the views of some noble Lords, in repositioning this nation in the totally new international situation that is emerging very fast. Finally, on the general points, my noble friend Lord Risby reminded us very importantly of the spirit of Laaken, which was, if I may put it in the vernacular, ““For heaven’s sake, let us bring the workings of the Union closer to the people””—a task that was totally failed by the consequent European constitution, which we debated for long hours in this House, and to some extent the Lisbon treaty, which I am afraid also failed to meet that particular objective. I will address, with your Lordships, the precise issues that came up in the amendments, not necessarily in the order in which they were put forward. I would like to deal with my noble friend Lord Goodhart’s profound and learned comments on the European public prosecutor and associated issues. I would certainly like to address the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. I would also like to deal with the common defence aspects. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, led the first amendment in a very persuasive and even seductive way. I welcome his concession that there should be a referendum before the UK gives up its border controls and for certain aspects of common defence. I also welcome the acknowledgment that some other matters in Clause 6 might merit a referendum in certain circumstances. This is what I mean by us all travelling up the learning curve. I hope now to persuade and explain to your Lordships why all the elements of Clause 6—which, contrary to this constant reference to trivia, are directly wired into and relate back to the major red-line issues that concern the public and the nation—should be under the referendum lock, so that there is no inconsistency and no uncertainty. Let me first make some general comments on the whole group of amendments. The Bill and Clause 6 —and Schedule 1, which the clause activates—set out to give the British people their say on future transfers of further competence of power from the UK to the European Union. With great respect to the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, who gave a splendidly eloquent speech, this has absolutely nothing—thank goodness—to do with university fees or reform of the National Health Service. Those are very important issues that we will debate with great intensity. What we are debating here is the transfer of competences and powers away from this Parliament and this nation to the European Union, and not the internal domestic reforms that we all argue about and which are controversial, I realise, and a matter of heated debate. To exempt specific areas of competence or power in the way these amendments propose would in my view, and in that of many who want to see our role in Europe repositioned as a leading and positive one, a thoroughly retrograde step. It would serve to undermine the direct, frank and honest commitment that we wish to make to the British people. It has been implied that the Government might on occasion be better placed than the people to assess the national interest—this is the thought underlying many of the contributions that have been made—and that the representatives of the people in Parliament should be left to decide. I can only reiterate, to add to the figures given by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, that in the 2009 European Parliament survey over 80 per cent of those polled agreed that all treaty changes should be determined by referendum. I really would suggest that the public can be trusted to determine what is in their own interest on issues on which they wish to express their view. They are not trivial issues at all. It should be for Government and Parliament to commend with confidence a further transfer of competence or power to the electorate and make the case on its merits. I do not see why there is such fear about that. Listening to the debate in the other place, I am not sure that there was all that much fear. Even the Front Bench of Her Majesty’s Opposition in the other place seemed to be fairly aware of that. The more I listen to the Front Bench in this House, the more it seems that it is getting a little out of step with its party’s views and with the general, overwhelming public view that this legislation must be devoted to achieving some reconnection between people, Parliament and the European Union. I would mention, in brackets really, the constant reiteration that this is weakening Parliament. Parliament is involved at every stage. Parliament has to legislate as to whether there should be a referendum. Our Parliament remains at the centre of this entire process. It spreads the validity of the authorisation to the electorate in a way that is thoroughly consistent with modern trends. This may sound a little avant garde to those who are thinking about the European Union of 20, 30, 40 years ago and a different kind of politics that existed then, but the world has changed. That has to be accepted, and I am not sure that it has been by everyone in the general debate about this Bill. I turn to the specific amendments in the order in which I said I would and, first, to the European public prosecutor. Clause 6 reflects issues of great sensitivity for successive UK Governments, as well as those of many of our European partners. The debate is too often conducted as though we were striking out alone on these issues, with our concern for reconnection. Not so; it is the same in very many other European Union countries. I repeat that these are not trivial issues, as some noble Lords insist. The evidence from the European convention, which was gathered together, as noble Lords will remember, to devise the constitution, shows us how divisive the creation of the office of European public prosecutor proved to be with a number of member states, which registered, "““strong objections on both practical and accountability grounds””." The treaties provide for the possibility of a European public prosecutor, but there is no consensus whatever among member states that it should be set up because of the sensitivity of the proposal. It cannot be pushed aside that that sensitivity is very great. It is only right that if we agree to participate in such a measure, which would result in the possibility of British citizens being prosecuted in British courts by prosecutors working for the European public prosecutor and not our legal authorities—that would be quite revolutionary—we should first seek the consent of the British people. That remains our view. That is why I have to say to my noble friend that I fear that I cannot accept his amendment.