Parliamentary Standards Bill

My Lords, I was ill reading my words. Forgive me. I know exactly what the noble Lord was referring to. The noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, asked whether IPSA and the commissioner would not be able to perform their functions because the provision on privilege in the Bill as introduced disapplied privilege to permit IPSA and the commissioner to perform their functions. The prohibition on questioning proceedings in Parliament in Article IX of the Bill of Rights applies to, ""any court or place out of Parliament"." Neither IPSA nor the commissioner is a court. "Place out of Parliament" should not be taken literally. It obviously does not prevent newspapers or the public from commenting on Parliament. In 1999, the Joint Committee on Parliamentary Privilege stated that "place out of Parliament" includes tribunals where witnesses give evidence on oath but not non-statutory tribunals or inquiries. I note the views expressed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell of Markyate, about the need for salaries to be increased to take account of second home expenses. I am sure that the other place will come back to that, but that is a matter for it. The noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, said about the nature of the public anger that it is the allowances themselves, not the way in which they are administered, that is important. Sir Christopher Kelly’s committee is looking at the allowances, but the Bill is necessary to provide the structure so that, when the new allowances system is brought in, it can be implemented in the best possible way. The noble Lord, Lord Williamson, posed a number of questions. I shall answer just one of them. Yes, the Bill carefully separates the functions of IPSA and those of the commissioner. Both IPSA and the commissioner have their functions conferred separately on them. They are established separately. The only link is a duty on IPSA adequately to resource the commissioner. Paragraph 7 of Schedule 2 is about separating the administrative functions of IPSA—for example, setting the allowances scheme. I will respond to the noble Lord in writing. To the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, I say that I have no illustrious ancestors. I bought all my own furniture. I came from peasant stock and mining stock, but my stock were also men and women of integrity. They, like me, had a sense of history. Like the noble Earl, when I come into this place, I feel that it is a very special place. Because I feel that it is a special place, and because this Parliament belongs to the ancestors of both of us, and to the people of this country, who are so angry, we have a duty to deliver a Bill that will help to promote understanding and assuage that deep anger. I agree with much of what the noble Lord, Lord Cope, said about the excellent work of the Constitution Committee and I assure him that I have listened throughout the debate. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, that nobody thinks that this is a total solution. This is part of the solution, along with Sir Christopher Kelly’s committee, the work by Sir Thomas Legg and many other things that are now being implemented in the House of Commons. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, is right to say that the public do not understand why MPs should be solely responsible for their pay and conditions. That is why the Bill is so important. He was right to mention the excellent paper written by the Clerk of the Parliaments, to whom I pay tribute. I will come back to the noble Lord in writing on many points. Is there a difference between dishonesty and knowledge? There is a great difference between the elements of dishonesty and knowledge of an offence. Dishonesty requires a higher threshold for the prosecution to overcome and is determined by a two-stage test. I think that I have answered many of the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. I love dancing and I wore the appropriate shoes today. Yes, of course it is our duty to scrutinise and improve the Bill and I am determined that that is exactly what this House should and must do. I have heard what many noble Lords have said about the arrangements that we have proposed to debate the Bill before the Recess. I have really listened and I know that the House wants more time to scrutinise the Bill. I respect those views and, while I may not go quite as far as the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, suggested, I undertake to go away and discuss the arrangements with the usual channels in the light of what has been said today to try to find more time. I have to say that we have very few days available to us and there is a great deal of business still unfinished, but I note what has been said seriously and vehemently in this House today. I assure the House that, whatever happens, the Government will bring forward their amendments for the Committee stage in very good time so that noble Lords have ample time to reflect on them. This is an extremely important Bill. I have listened to and noted the views of noble Lords. I believe that passing the Bill as expeditiously as possible is the right thing to do. My feelings are clear; the feelings of the Government are clear. I accept that the Bill requires an awful lot more work, but I know that this House is the right place to undertake that work and that, with its assistance, the Bill will be greatly improved. I commend the Bill to the House. Bill read a second time.